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Do you wish "Create SubVI From Selection" worked better?


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#21 Aristos Queue

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:22 AM

I've given up on posting any significant language advancement ideas on the IE, simply because I know it won't get any kudos and that will give management leverage not to implement it. If I lobby for it on Lava or NI's forums it might get someone's attention at NI and they can rally internal support for it while avoiding the dreaded IE mark of death. That's my hope anyway...

I like to point out to various and sundry constituencies within NI that a teeny tiny handful of customers ever asked for object oriented programming. We never got a field sales engineer reporting "My customers could really use some better encapsulation." But we got tons of requests for the compiler validating the VIs marked as not-top-level in LLBs weren't called outside of the LLB. We never got requests for inheritance, but we have many requests for more code reuse.

R&D is fairly aware that the big changes -- the ones that shift the paradigm of LabVIEW, like the Event Structure or the IPE or OO -- are not common user requests. Putting them on the idea exchange is not a bad thing. That still gives us a place to discuss a new idea in the public forums, and it can provide a one-stop-shop for all the ideas we've considered over time. For example, I don't expect my source code control meta language idea to ever rack up high kudos, but I put it on the Idea Exchange to archive it and to allow the few folks that could envision that idea to comment on it. I probably won't ever work on that idea, but maybe someone on my team will at some point. Anyway, I still like that aspect of the IE, and I hope that the "reach for the stars" and the "hey, I can dream, can't I?" ideas still get posted there.

#22 ShaunR

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 02:06 AM

like the Event Structure or the IPE or OO -- are not common user requests.

I think you'll find that a way of handling Events was being called for for quite some time. Not necessarily an event structure but a way of handling UI events as all the other visual languages could.
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#23 Daklu

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 03:47 AM

I like to point out to various and sundry constituencies within NI that a teeny tiny handful of customers ever asked for object oriented programming.

I know. That's why I still have faith some of the grander ideas may still come to fruition.


We never got a field sales engineer reporting "My customers could really use some better encapsulation." But we got tons of requests for the compiler validating the VIs marked as not-top-level in LLBs weren't called outside of the LLB. We never got requests for inheritance, but we have many requests for more code reuse.

As a Labview end-user I often have a hard time explaining what my *goal* is and tend to focus on asking for a *specific implementation.* Maybe it's a problem all users have. My customers are always telling me *how* to do something that they think will meet their goal, only to find out afterwards that it doesn't quite work out the way they thought it would. Ironically, I'm pretty good at drilling down and figuring out customer requirements when I'm the developer... I just suck at it when I'm the customer.


R&D is fairly aware that the big changes

That doesn't surpise me at all, but I'm glad to hear it anyway. You're programmers so you understand what we're asking for and why it doesn't get more support on the IE. Here's the questions I'm wondering about:
- Does R&D have the authority to put language features on the map that add new functionality when marketing wanks are crying that an Express vi to randomize the front panel color scheme just hit #10 on the IE? (Yep, my biases are showing... sorry.)
- Which department owns the IE? It's a device to solicit customer feedback so my guess is marketing or product planners, but maybe not. I suspect neither of those groups are particularly concerned about the minority of advanced programmers who see a need for major feature additions. And when it comes down to deciding between the random color Express VI with 78 gazillion kudos and interfaces with 9 kudos, are interfaces even going to show up as an option on the slide deck.


Putting them on the idea exchange is not a bad thing. That still gives us a place to discuss a new idea in the public forums, and it can provide a one-stop-shop for all the ideas we've considered over time.

Old ideas drop off the community radar and don't get any action. Do they stay on NI's radar? Sure it provides a one-stop shop, but if product planning is just dashing in to grab the latest sugar-coated idea featured on the end cap, the old ideas will forever sit in the back gathering dust. There will always be ideas with way more than 9 kudos. How often is the entire list scoured and evaluated?


Anyway, I still like that aspect of the IE, and I hope that the "reach for the stars" and the "hey, I can dream, can't I?" ideas still get posted there.

I don't mean this to be a rant against the IE. I really do think it's a good idea and NI's commitment to focusing on the customer is admirable. It's just frustrating as a user to see relatively minor changes shoot to the top of the chart while the ideas that truly expand what we can do with the language go nowhere. You have the advantage of knowing how seriously an idea is being considered. As far as the rest of us are concerned, we often don't have any insight into what effect (if any) the idea is having on the direction the language is going. (Unless it happens to be one of the few ideas that gets picked up by NI.)

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#24 Yair

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 08:19 AM

What is the "Lithium system?"


The NI forums (and IE) run on a platform developed by a company called Lithium. I was referring to the fact that the IE was a relatively new product and it seems considerably unpolished. I don't know who else uses the IE module, but it seems that our usage of it has been pushing it "over the limit" and since we managed to do that so easily, I wasn't particularly impressed with the system.

You [AQ] have the advantage of knowing how seriously an idea is being considered. As far as the rest of us are concerned, we often don't have any insight into what effect (if any) the idea is having on the direction the language is going...


I think that's an excellent point. I have mentioned to various NI people in the past that it would be useful if the whole process had more transparency and user involvement, but it maybe it's time to pick up that cause again (although I should point out I'm not too optimistic, due to business considerations, etc.).

#25 Daklu

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 02:22 PM

it seems that our usage of it has been pushing it "over the limit"

Really? I hadn't noticed. ('Course, I don't go there very often...)


(although I should point out I'm not too optimistic, due to business considerations, etc.).

Yeah, me neither. Actually I agree with their reasons for not opening up feature planning. I just wish it was different. And since "world peace" ideas get no love, there's little motivation to post them.

(In spite of that, hope overrode logic once again and I posted another world peace idea I've been lobbying AQ for.)

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#26 Aristos Queue

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 06:17 PM

Thanks for the kudos, everyone. Darren and I will take it from here and see how far we get... keep an eye open for the beta program come spring to see if we made the case. :-)

#27 jgcode

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:23 PM

Thanks for the kudos, everyone. Darren and I will take it from here and see how far we get... keep an eye open for the beta program come spring to see if we made the case. :-)



You are welcome.
Are you able to post the before and after Kudos figures?
I am interested on how successful your web campaigning was.

Cheers
-JG

<edit>
From your post I see the main idea went from 79 to 182, which sits it under Top Ideas - thats impressive.
How did the others go?
</edit>

#28 Cat

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 12:25 PM

I don't mean this to be a rant against the IE.

Since the campaign seems to have worked, and this thread seems to have wandered off-topic anyway... every time I go to IE I wonder, "What's the difference between a 'Hot Idea' and a 'New Idea' "? Any guesses from anyone out there?

Edit: I get that "New Ideas" is actually a list of *all* ideas (all 69 pages of 'em). So the question is really about how "Hot Ideas" -- also a list of all ideas -- is sorted.
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#29 jgcode

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 01:53 PM

So the question is really about how "Hot Ideas" -- also a list of all ideas -- is sorted.


Is has to be a custom algorithm that uses Time and Kudos to create a weighting for each Idea.
Time must weigh quite high initially, because you can make the top of the list with just 1-2 votes if its a brand new Idea.
After that, if it lacks votes, it seems to drop off quick.




#30 Norm Kirchner

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 03:08 PM

Since the campaign seems to have worked, and this thread seems to have wandered off-topic anyway... every time I go to IE I wonder, "What's the difference between a 'Hot Idea' and a 'New Idea' "? Any guesses from anyone out there?

Edit: I get that "New Ideas" is actually a list of *all* ideas (all 69 pages of 'em). So the question is really about how "Hot Ideas" -- also a list of all ideas -- is sorted.



New Idea
http://www.google.co...xD4TJnAeQnrz_Bg

Hot Idea
http://www.google.co...ved=0CBkQ9QEwAA