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#21 Daklu

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 04:36 PM

Resolution:

I had a phone conference with the grader, an in-house expert, and our local sales rep. They spent time before the call reviewing my solution and the grade that was given. The outcome wasn't changed, but I do have a much better idea of why the points were deducted.

Using an object-oriented design was not an issue in grading. Neither was the (alleged) lack of technical ability on the part of the grader. I think my biggest issue (and Zaki can chime in if he wants to) is lack of sufficient documentation on implementation details. In some cases I figured the implementation details were self-evident. In other cases I thought the details were irrelevant from an architectural standpoint. And of course there were cases where I thought I put in more details than I actually had. Whatever the cause, my solution didn't include enough detail to satisfy NI's requirements.

I haven't decided if I will resit for the exam. Being unable to use the LapDog Messaging Library is a huge disadvantage for me, as it is a central component in my desktop architectures. I can't afford to spend a quarter of my time (or more) recreating it from scratch. I'll probably work through the sample exam some more and see how much I can get done in four hours.


If that is true it is in the engineering process and technical writing.

The ironic thing is I failed high school english--twice--because I couldn't get my writing assignments turned in. (Plus most of the grammar taught seems largely pointless.) Then in my first year of college I scored well enough they asked me to work in the writing help center for credit instead of taking the usual composition class. I failed that too for the same reason. Go figure...

Oh yes, writing and I have had a very rocky relationship. (Though I do have a slightly better relationship with her less glamorous sister, technical writing.)


If you had the time write a book...

Heh... there's not enough time in the history of the universe for me to write a book. It's not unusual for me to spend 8-12 hours on a longer post, which maybe translates into 3 pages on a book. (I have been considering archiving a collection of essays though...)


Of course it would mean you would have less time for us here on Lava so maybe it is better you don't.

And less time to do things like... you know... earn money. :P

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#22 neBulus

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 06:43 PM

Resolution:
...
And less time to do things like... you know... earn money. :P


I am glad that you resolved the issues.

I am still opposed to timed testing but I wil have to wait to push that agenda again.

Take care,

Ben

#23 Mark Yedinak

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 02:19 PM

Sorry it hear it did not work out better for you but at least you understand the grade now. I hope you decide to try again. One thing did jump out at me in your last post. You mentioned not being able to use another library to implement your solution but it is important to understand that the CLA exam is not looking for your complete code, but for the architecture to give someone else to implement. You need to design the framework for the application, not the application itself. Therefore you do not need to have the messaging library in order to complete the exam. You could easily have documented that the application requires the messaging library (perhaps even specifying a specific one) and describe how the messaging works. You are not required to actually implement it. This can save considerable time on the exam.

Good luck should you try again.
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#24 Daklu

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 08:09 PM

THe certification can be turned into a project...

I really like this idea. (Maybe because I think I would do much better in that kind of test.) I don't know how practical it would be to do in real-life, but it is much more aligned with the skill set I think of when someone talks about an architect.


it is important to understand that the CLA exam is not looking for your complete code, but for the architecture to give someone else to implement.

You are of course correct--that is what the CLA is looking for. Much of my original post was misguided, but the one critique I do think is still applicable is the idea that an architecture should be designed and handed off to the dev team. A waterfall development process like that just doesn't work very well in my experience. (Unless you're building something that is a slight variation of something you've built 100 times before.) I don't think I would accept a job where a client wanted me to design a system and then go away while someone else implements it.

For me, architecture is a process, not a deliverable. The architecture evolves as the implementation progresses. I'll have a high-level idea of the necessary functional components, their main responsibilities, and how they'll communicate with each other, but I don't bother trying to formally define all the details of each component's api since they will change as new discoveries are made and issues come up during implementation. The architecture is done when the application is done.


You need to design the framework for the application, not the application itself.

A couple months ago I discovered a podcast called Software Engineering Radio. This weekend I was listening to Episode 87: Software Components. In it they said something that really struck a chord with me. To paraphrase, "Code is used to implement an architecture; it is not a good way to express an architecture."

This is a major obstacle for me. I could explain my design to someone in an hour or two using a whiteboard and a few example vis. In the pre-exam overview I was told not to include paper documentation with the solution. I asked specifically about using hand-drawn state diagrams to illustrate allowable transitions and required transition conditions. The answer was no. In practice I'll often create the state diagram using a uml tool and paste it onto the block diagram. For the exam I'm required to communicate the design to unknown developers so they can implement it, yet the exam conditions eliminate the best way I have of doing that. I'm not sure how to deal with this in a way that results in points being awarded. Maybe I'll create a doc.vi for each component and just put notes and arrows on the block diagram to recreate a state diagram?


Therefore you do not need to have the messaging library in order to complete the exam. You could easily have documented that the application requires the messaging library (perhaps even specifying a specific one) and describe how the messaging works. You are not required to actually implement it.

No, but I'd have to give enough details that an over-the-wall developer could implement it. That means describing the details of the MessageQueue class, the Message class, and the ErrorMessage class. Then I also have to describe how they work together, how to use them in code, and how to create and use custom messages. In the end there's a lot of telling but very little showing.

In principle I should be able to just create the public vis with the appropriate connector pane terminals and write a short note on the bd describing its behavior. In the case of the LapDog Message Library, describing it takes almost the same amount of time as fully implementing it. (Except for the Dequeue method; that would take a couple extra minutes to implement.) Almost all of the methods in the library are very thin wrappers or getters/setters. The value (imo) of the LDM stems from its structural organization and the collaboration of the classes, not any code magic inside it. I don't see any reasonable way to use it without recreating all the vis that are used. Unfortunately, creating the classes, methods, icons, descriptions, and inheritance hierarchy takes a pretty big chunk of time, and when I finally finish that task I haven't even covered a single requirement.

Giving a specific reference to the library might help... I dunno. I know we can't have pre-built code. I assumed that also means we can't specify pre-built code in our solution.

(IIRC, for this submission I actually created an LDM "lite," which was a few MessageQueue methods (Dequeue included, since that is a key part of the whole thing) built around a string-variant message type. I remember a couple times being frustrated with it and wishing I had the real library.)

------

Assuming anyone is bothering to continue reading this thread, don't take any of this to mean I'm opposed to certification. I doubt NI views training and certification as a primary revenue stream. I suspect it is driven by business needs. Customers want some indication of whether a consultant is worth his salt or blowing smoke, so NI created certification. I'm not particularly fond of the way the CLA is structured, but perhaps that is driven by customers too. If customers are asking for architects to do designs so they can be implemented by lower cost labor elsewhere, then maybe that's what NI should give them. Personally I think the customer will be much happier at the end of the day when the architect and developers are working together closely. If customers *are* asking NI for ivory tower architects I'd prefer they push back a little and educate customers about good software dev processes instead of enabling the customer to head down a path littered with failed projects.

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#25 MikaelH

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 09:43 PM

1. Don't use object-oriented design patterns. Before the exam our local sales rep hosted a call with an exam grader, and he indicated using LVOOP (or GOOP) was acceptable. I can only assume that means they don't reject it out of hand. I used facades, mediators, and an object-based state machine, all of which are common in other languages


I've used OO in all my LV applications since 2000, but I agree, I won't use OO in the exam, since without a toolkit it would take me to a bit too long time.
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#26 neBulus

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 12:35 PM

I really like this idea. (Maybe because I think I would do much better in that kind of test.) I don't know how practical it would be to do in real-life, but it is much more aligned with the skill set I think of when someone talks about an architect.
...


Lot s of good thoughts there. Please excuse my laziness with quoting you.

The interactive nature of a review process would help bridge the gaps transfering your solution to the minds of those ding the evaluation. I think it could also help out with the terminology barier (Non-CS types who kick-ass in LV but never took any official cousrse... How exactly do you pronounce "boolean" anyway?) as well. I had been designing application for years before I figured out what "Use Case" was talking about (Yes, I admit it ! I was teaching myself to design and implement software before any college ever concidered including it as course work. I recall having a PHD from Pitt floowing me around asking question while I was fixing his hard-drive.

Re: Patterns

The intent of Patterns serves multiple roles. Not only do they help us idientify solutions to well defined situations but they also are a form of short-hand that should eliminate the need to explaining them.

I hope you find the chance to confront this challenge again some time. I do not feel I am alone in saying;

"There is chair with "DAKLU" in the virtual hall of CLA waiting for you."

Take care,

Ben

#27 Cat

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 02:42 PM

The interactive nature of a review process would help bridge the gaps transfering your solution to the minds of those ding the evaluation. I think it could also help out with the terminology barier (Non-CS types who kick-ass in LV but never took any official cousrse... How exactly do you pronounce "boolean" anyway?) as well. I had been designing application for years before I figured out what "Use Case" was talking about

Yes! I kept reading over and over on LAVA about this wonderful thing called "plug-in architecture", finally researched it, and discovered it was something I'd been doing for quite some time -- I just didn't know the fancy name for it. I will admit to some concern over potentially being stuck by not knowing "correct" terminology when/if I ever get around to taking any of these certification exams.
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#28 ShaunR

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 04:15 AM

Yes! I kept reading over and over on LAVA about this wonderful thing called "plug-in architecture", finally researched it, and discovered it was something I'd been doing for quite some time -- I just didn't know the fancy name for it. I will admit to some concern over potentially being stuck by not knowing "correct" terminology when/if I ever get around to taking any of these certification exams.


Perhaps we should design a BS Bingo game for LabVIEW :)

Edited by ShaunR, 14 May 2011 - 04:43 AM.

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#29 Aristos Queue

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 11:44 PM

I've used OO in all my LV applications since 2000, but I agree, I won't use OO in the exam, since without a toolkit it would take me to a bit too long time.

I might buy this argument for the CLD, but not for the CLA. You're not having to fill in all the detailed code in the CLA, which means its mostly "Create some basic classes and put empty VIs into those classes."

Somewhere between 2 and 3 out of 10 of all CLA exams submitted do use LVOOP as their primary design orientation. I did both my CLD and CLA exams with "no VIs that weren't a member of some class" partially because I usually design that way and then prune back later if it seems prudent, so at the architecture stage it really is all classes, and partially to prove that it could be done within the time.

Yes! I kept reading over and over on LAVA about this wonderful thing called "plug-in architecture", finally researched it, and discovered it was something I'd been doing for quite some time -- I just didn't know the fancy name for it. I will admit to some concern over potentially being stuck by not knowing "correct" terminology when/if I ever get around to taking any of these certification exams.

The exam doesn't care so much about the terminology as long as you explain what you're doing. The value of the terminology is the shared vocabulary can save a lot of time. If you can just write down "put a standard producer/consumer loop pair here linked by a queue", that's faster than explaining all the bits and pieces. There is a common parlance that develops around any technical field. The CLA exam does not require that you speak it, but it does weight advantage to those who do.

And, for the record, since you are reading LAVA, you've picked up that bit of terminology. Anyone who keeps reading like that will eventually pick up the terms.

No, but I'd have to give enough details that an over-the-wall developer could implement it. That means describing the details of the MessageQueue class, the Message class, and the ErrorMessage class.

It would be worth asking whether the CLA graders would accept a VI that says, "Download standard toolkit XYZ from location MNO and instantiate the following template, then put that subVI here." ... and similar comments. Any of the tools like LapDog, or AMC, or ReX, or the Actor Framework, or the GOOP Toolkit might be usable then. After all, that's exactly the instructions I would give to a developer in some of these cases.

I seriously doubt that it would get you off the hook for actually doing the module design and layout of pieces, but if you can broadly mimic the pieces that you want those tools to generate, that might pass examination. Worth asking, IMHO.

I suspect it is driven by business needs. Customers want some indication of whether a consultant is worth his salt or blowing smoke, so NI created certification. I'm not particularly fond of the way the CLA is structured, but perhaps that is driven by customers too. If customers are asking for architects to do designs so they can be implemented by lower cost labor elsewhere, then maybe that's what NI should give them.

My understanding of the intent of the CLA, and how it is used by managers who look for the certification when hiring, is that the CLA is a leader of CLDs, someone who works a bit faster than a CLD because of long practice, but more importantly, someone who can teach. Not every crackerjack developer can actually teach others how to develop. An architect has to have that skill. "This project is larger than what any single developer can build alone; I'm going to spec out the parts of that system and then farm them out to you guys. If you build them wrong, I'll show you why it doesn't fit with the rest of the system." Over time, a CLA should be able to create new CLDs from untrained new hires. That's my understanding, anyway, and I believe that's why documentation counts so much in the exam.

#30 Daklu

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 06:54 PM

You're not having to fill in all the detailed code in the CLA, which means its mostly "Create some basic classes and put empty VIs into those classes."

I'm not convinced this will save me a lot of time. As I've learned OOP and applied it to LV over the last several years my classes have gotten smaller and more specialized. Each class is very limited in what it does, often to the point where the functionality a class encapsulates is contained on a single bd. (The LDM MessageQueue class is a prime example of this.) And my custom data types are almost always classes with accessors instead of clusters for reasons I've explained elsewhere. Of course these decisions requires more classes overall, so even though I don't have to fill in all the details of every vi I still have the overhead of creating the classes and all the public methods the class exposes.


Somewhere between 2 and 3 out of 10 of all CLA exams submitted do use LVOOP as their primary design orientation.

That's interesting. I wonder if that reflects the LVOOP adoption rate overall among intermediate to advanced developers? It would also be interesting to see how much this number changes over time.


so at the architecture stage it really is all classes

The way I develop apps at the architecture level it is all components (typically a lvlib,) where each component's api is made up of several classes that work together to fulfill the component's responsibilities. Probably very similar to what you do with a slightly different project structure.


and partially to prove that it could be done within the time.

In practice my apps are heavily multi-threaded and message based because I find adapting to changing requirements and reusing code is much easier using this paradigm. Maybe I need to just abandon the messaging architecture for the CLA and use something more direct, even though I wouldn't do that IRL...


The exam doesn't care so much about the terminology as long as you explain what you're doing. The value of the terminology is the shared vocabulary can save a lot of time.

Yeah, this is another area where I'm having a hard time figuring out how much is enough. There are implementation patterns I use that address the shortcomings I've encountered in many of the common LV patterns. (i.e. I've written at length about the QSM and it's dangers, so I'd never instruct a junior developer to create one.) Unfortunately for me these patterns aren't widely recognized within the LV community and explaining how and why to implement them to a typical over-the-wall Labview developer is difficult, to say the least. Yet some of the implementation details are important from an architectural standpoint, so I have a hard time sweeping them under the rug.

For example, when a component reacts to messages sent by a source it doesn't have intimate knowledge of, I don't ever put functional code in a timeout case because the timeout might never expire. Instead I create separate timer loops to regularly enqueue messages which in turn trigger the functionality that needs to execute. That's an important detail if the component is going to be robust, but over-the-wall developers--especially if they are overseas contractors--may not even be aware of the potential issue, much less know how to resolve it. In my hypothetical organization everyone knows how to correctly build a reactive component so I can focus on the interface instead of specifying implementation details.

I've mentioned the SlaveLoop in previous threads. I like using it in combination with the LDM because it presents a well-defined interface to a parallel component's functionality without adding the complexity of dynamically spawning clones. It's certainly not a well-known pattern. It doesn't really translate to text languages so I don't get any help from there. As far as I know I'm the only one who uses it. (Well, me and my hypothetical organization.) How much detail do I have to show or explain to get credit on the CLA? (It's a rhetorical question... I don't expect you to answer.)

I guess some of my uncertainty is due to a lack of maturity in LVOOP terminology, which is in part due to LVOOP's relative newness. We're all still learning how to apply ideas and terminology from other OO languages to Labview so one person's "factory method" might be another person's "creator method."


My understanding of the intent of the CLA, and how it is used by managers who look for the certification when hiring, is that the CLA is... <snip>... someone who can teach. <snip> "If you build them wrong, I'll show you why it doesn't fit with the rest of the system."

That is a sensible take on it, but I don't quite see how the exam's current format promotes that. Teaching is an interactive process between teacher and student. The CLA exam doesn't allow that at all. Furthermore, if I'm going to be teaching a junior developer I need to have a good understanding what he knows and what he doesn't know. The CLA guidelines simply say that someone else will implement the details; they don't give any indication about what these other developers know.

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#31 neBulus

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 12:41 PM

RE: CS terminology

Yes those term would help those being tested if they know them but the time the same in writting the question could inhibit the non-CS types.

I would like NI to put together an glossery of all CS terms that COULD be used on a CLA exam. It would include all of those phrases that non-CS type may not be familiar with by name.

The CLA Glossery would;

Be posted as part of the exam prep matial
Included in the CLA application
Included as part of the exam packet.

I feel it would;
help the CS types relax about the terminology
Aide in prep for the exam
Allow non-LV types to get a better picture of what a CLA has to know.

I do not feel it would in anyway decrease the effectiveness of the exam. After all, the exam is not a CS terminology exam.

Re: What Aristos said about a CLA training rookies. Thank you!:rolleyes:

Ben

Edited by neBulus, 16 May 2011 - 12:50 PM.


#32 Jeff Bohrer

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 04:47 PM

This thread attracted much more attention than I expected and I need to make a couple more comments:

First, I was frustrated when ......
...


Now that shows class and integrity!

#33 Omar Mussa

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 07:06 PM

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It would be worth asking whether the CLA graders would accept a VI that says, "Download standard toolkit XYZ from location MNO and instantiate the following template, then put that subVI here." ... and similar comments. Any of the tools like LapDog, or AMC, or ReX, or the Actor Framework, or the GOOP Toolkit might be usable then. After all, that's exactly the instructions I would give to a developer in some of these cases.


I would be happy with the following change - any free for commercial use code (i.e. free, not just trial mode) software that can be downloaded from the LabVIEW Tools Network should be allowed in the CLA exam. It is really frustrating to experienced developers when they can't use their standard tool-set (and one that is ultimately managed by NI) on the CLA exam. It definitely takes critical time away from creating an architecture when you are compelled to recreate architecture components (or even their interfaces) from scratch, especially when you already use them every day.

#34 Daklu

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 11:50 PM

I would be happy with the following change...

:thumbup1: :star:

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#35 ShaunR

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 07:48 PM

I would be happy with the following change - any free for commercial use code (i.e. free, not just trial mode) software that can be downloaded from the LabVIEW Tools Network should be allowed in the CLA exam. It is really frustrating to experienced developers when they can't use their standard tool-set (and one that is ultimately managed by NI) on the CLA exam. It definitely takes critical time away from creating an architecture when you are compelled to recreate architecture components (or even their interfaces) from scratch, especially when you already use them every day.

I'm probably in the minority here (again Posted Image) but you don't need a software tool-chain to create an architecture. You are only using the LabVIEW IDE as your editor instead of (say) Microsoft word. The NI exams are specifically designed to be challenging in the time frame provided. However. If people feel the architecture for these fairly simple systems require a tool-chain just to realise it. Then perhaps the proposed architecture is over-complicated for the task (KISS).
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#36 Dan DeFriese

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 07:51 PM

However. If people feel the architecture for these fairly simple systems require a tool-chain just to realise it. Then perhaps the proposed architecture is over-complicated for the task (KISS).


I couldn't agree more. The best thing I took away from the CLD is that my approach was way too complicated for what I was being asked to do. My submission was good-enough to pass, but I didn't complete all the features. I've really concentrated on the KISS principle ever since. Thanks NI!

#37 ShaunR

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 08:35 PM

I couldn't agree more. The best thing I took away from the CLD is that my approach was way too complicated for what I was being asked to do. My submission was good-enough to pass, but I didn't complete all the features. I've really concentrated on the KISS principle ever since. Thanks NI!


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#38 Daklu

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 10:03 PM

If people feel the architecture for these fairly simple systems require a tool-chain just to realise it. Then perhaps the proposed architecture is over-complicated for the task (KISS).

In principle I agree with you. As a practical matter, the simple architectures don't allow for the kind of flexibility that accomodates the changes customers commonly request, so I don't use them and don't practice them. Maybe customers do exist who have well defined requirements and don't ask for changes partway through development. If so, I haven't encountered them.

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#39 Aristos Queue

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 10:46 PM

Maybe customers do exist who have well defined requirements and don't ask for changes partway through development. If so, I haven't encountered them.

Neither have I. *pointed look at all of you*
:-)

#40 crelf

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 02:11 PM

I would be happy with the following change - any free for commercial use code software that can be downloaded from the LabVIEW Tools Network should be allowed in the CLA exam.

I don't think that would work (we could put a whole CLA-style project in OpenG :) ), besides, most of my reuse comes from our internal reuse libraries, which certainly aren't externally available, nor free :)

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