Firewire camera not detectable via hub

[Shazlan]

Hi,

I have a desktop with a PCI firewire card installed and a firewire camera connected to one of the port. This setup works fine. However, I recently purchased a new firewire hub from Belkin (http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=193393) to increase the number of firewire ports. The hub is powered externally from a DC source. The problem appears when I make the connection from the camera to the hub and then to the PCI card. The computer does not seem to be able to 'see' the camera - the subtree imaqdx does appear in MAX. I've checked the hub and there's power to it. I have no idea how to check whether the hub is working correctly but since it is brand new, I assume it is okay.

Also, I am hoping that I could connect the hub to my laptop. The laptop has a 4-pin firewire port but since the hub is powered externally, this shouldn't be a problem (or should it?). I've tried but have the same problem as above. I assume that once the camera is detectable in MAX via the hub, the same solution can also be adopted for laptop/mobile applications.

I've browsed through NI forum and found out other people have done similar setup before and it seems that it is a rather simple setup. I'm running out of ideas on troubleshooting this bugger. Any help, hints or advices are very much appreciated.

Thanks.

Shazlan

[crelf]

Right - the power from the hub should be enough to power the devices too. The four wire port on your laptop is just the data lines, so the hub should inject power across the other two pins of the 6 pin connector for devices. Maybe google the pinout of the 6 pin connector and then put a meter across the power pins on the hub to make sure they're hot.

[Neville D]

QUOTE (Shazlan @ Dec 2 2008, 11:27 PM)

I have a desktop with a PCI firewire card installed and a firewire camera connected to one of the port. This setup works fine. However, I recently purchased a new firewire hub from Belkin (http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=193393) to increase the number of firewire ports. The hub is powered externally from a DC source. The problem appears when I make the connection from the camera to the hub and then to the PCI card. The computer does not seem to be able to 'see' the camera - the subtree imaqdx does appear in MAX. I've checked the hub and there's power to it. I have no idea how to check whether the hub is working correctly but since it is brand new, I assume it is okay.

Can you use the Viewing software supplied with your camera (not MAX) to see if there is an image with the hub connected? I seem to remember you have to select the correct Firewire driver (non-NI) for the camera manufacturer's software to work in the Device Manager (My Computer>Properties>Hardware>Device Mgr).

Also check that your camera supports working with a firewire hub.

QUOTE (Shazlan @ Dec 2 2008, 11:27 PM)

Also, I am hoping that I could connect the hub to my laptop. The laptop has a 4-pin firewire port but since the hub is powered externally, this shouldn't be a problem (or should it?). I've tried but have the same problem as above. I assume that once the camera is detectable in MAX via the hub, the same solution can also be adopted for laptop/mobile applications.

Chris is right about the power lines. Laptops have 4 pin firewire (no power lines). But if your hub has a 6 pin connector on it, it should be supplying the additional power. What do the specs on your hub say?

To use my Prosilica Firewire camera with my laptop, I bought an additional special cable from them that has 4 pins (laptop end) and 6 pins (camera end) with an additional power line coming out that goes to a 12V wall wart. This worked fine with NI stuff.

Neville.

[Shazlan]

QUOTE (Neville D @ Dec 4 2008, 01:50 AM)

Can you use the Viewing software supplied with your camera (not MAX) to see if there is an image with the hub connected? I seem to remember you have to select the correct Firewire driver (non-NI) for the camera manufacturer's software to work in the Device Manager (My Computer>Properties>Hardware>Device Mgr).

Also check that your camera supports working with a firewire hub.

Chris is right about the power lines. Laptops have 4 pin firewire (no power lines). But if your hub has a 6 pin connector on it, it should be supplying the additional power. What do the specs on your hub say?

To use my Prosilica Firewire camera with my laptop, I bought an additional special cable from them that has 4 pins (laptop end) and 6 pins (camera end) with an additional power line coming out that goes to a 12V wall wart. This worked fine with NI stuff.

Neville.

Thanks. I've installed the camera driver to the computer. If I were to connect the camera straight to the PCI card, I'm able to see the camera in MAX and choose the right driver for the camera in MAX. Driver or not, the main thing is that MAX or the computer sees the camera. However, when I use the hub, the computer sees nothing.

As far as power to the camera if using the hub, that I am sure of. Although the laptop's firewire port has only 4-pins, the hub itself is powered from the wall socket using AC/DC adapter. Plus, after I've leave the camera connected to the hub for a while, I can feel some heat when I touch the camera.

How do I check whether the camera supports working with firewire hub or not? I thought it is part of IEEE1394 (or was it DCAM?) protocol/standard that a computer can be connected to up to 50+ firewire devices at one time (at least theoretically). Nonetheless, I've checked NI forum and found a similar application (computer-PCI-hub-camera) done by others. The problem this guy faces is when he wants to connect to 2 hubs using one PCI card (bandwidth issue).

[Neville D]

QUOTE (Shazlan @ Dec 3 2008, 03:23 PM)

Thanks. I've installed the camera driver to the computer. If I were to connect the camera straight to the PCI card, I'm able to see the camera in MAX and choose the right driver for the camera in MAX. Driver or not, the main thing is that MAX or the computer sees the camera. However, when I use the hub, the computer sees nothing.

Yes, but you still haven't answered the question: did you try the camera+hub with the camera mfr software utility?

This will rule out whether the hub works or not. If hub works then its a MAX (NI) issue. If hub STILL doesn't work then its a hub issue.

N.

[crelf]

QUOTE (Shazlan @ Dec 3 2008, 06:23 PM)

If I were to connect the camera straight to the PCI card... MAX... sees the camera. However, when I use the hub, the computer sees nothing.

Then you've got a dud hub. MAX will see DCAM compliant cameras, irrespective of drivers that come witht he camera, and if it works without the hub, but doesn't work with the hub, then the hub's bad. Either it's faulty, or it'd not providing enough power to the camera.

[Shazlan]

QUOTE (crelf @ Dec 4 2008, 09:57 AM)

Then you've got a dud hub. MAX will see DCAM compliant cameras, irrespective of drivers that come witht he camera, and if it works without the hub, but doesn't work with the hub, then the hub's bad. Either it's faulty, or it'd not providing enough power to the camera.

I went back to Mac (they sold me the hub) and they confirmed that the hub is faulty. The project is now delayed for two weeks!

While thinking on ways to get around this, I've been thinking... I have a Magma 1-slot PCI expansion box. This box was to be connected to a laptop via ExpressCard but I believe the card was damaged a while back (the box is still fine, though). Now, if I were to insert my PCI card inside the expansion box, power it up and use it as a hub. Does anybody know whether this is possible?

[Rolf Kalbermatter]

QUOTE (Shazlan @ Dec 4 2008, 04:12 AM)

I went back to Mac (they sold me the hub) and they confirmed that the hub is faulty. The project is now delayed for two weeks!

While thinking on ways to get around this, I've been thinking... I have a Magma 1-slot PCI expansion box. This box was to be connected to a laptop via ExpressCard but I believe the card was damaged a while back (the box is still fine, though). Now, if I were to insert my PCI card inside the expansion box, power it up and use it as a hub. Does anybody know whether this is possible?

And how would you suppose would the data go from the PCI expansion box into your computer?

Not that I would trust this to work even if the ExpressCard to connect it to your computer would not be damaged. PCI expansion slots have many troubles and if they have to go through ExpressCard slots even more. Many drivers are not written to allow transparent access through PCI hubs and even if they are, many PCI hubs (your ExpressCard is one too) are not implementing the PCI specs correct enough to allow particular bus transfers such as DMA or certain Interrupt operations to occur transparently.

Rolf Kalbermatter

[Shazlan]

Thanks all for the comments and replies.

I've finally replaced the hub and have checked to ensure that it is working. I've tried two connection configurations (please see the attached jpeg). For the first configuration, I've connected my firewire cameras to the hub (which is powered by a DC source) and then, connect the hub to NI's Compact Vision System (CVS). All cables used are 6pin to 6pin firewire cable. Under this configuration, I could see the cameras and everything works fine.

However, the problem is with the second configuration (which is the configuration that I want). Instead of using CVS, I replaced it with a laptop with a built-in firewire port. This port, however, is a 4-pin port. According to the local NI support, this should not be a problem as the other two pins are meant for power and the hub is independently powered. After I have made the connection, the camera doesn't appear in MAX (which I assume means that the computer does not see the camera). I've tried using several laptops and the problem still persists.

Any ideas? This headache has become a great annoyance. All assistance and advices are highly appreciated.

[Rolf Kalbermatter]

QUOTE (Shazlan @ Feb 22 2009, 04:49 AM)

Thanks all for the comments and replies.

I've finally replaced the hub and have checked to ensure that it is working. I've tried two connection configurations (please see the attached jpeg). For the first configuration, I've connected my firewire cameras to the hub (which is powered by a DC source) and then, connect the hub to NI's Compact Vision System (CVS). All cables used are 6pin to 6pin firewire cable. Under this configuration, I could see the cameras and everything works fine.

However, the problem is with the second configuration (which is the configuration that I want). Instead of using CVS, I replaced it with a laptop with a built-in firewire port. This port, however, is a 4-pin port. According to the local NI support, this should not be a problem as the other two pins are meant for power and the hub is independently powered. After I have made the connection, the camera doesn't appear in MAX (which I assume means that the computer does not see the camera). I've tried using several laptops and the problem still persists.

Any ideas? This headache has become a great annoyance. All assistance and advices are highly appreciated.

In order for IMAQdx to be able to see your camera you need to associate it with the IMAQ Firewire driver that comes with the Visions Acquisition Software. You can do that in the Windows Device Manager.

Rolf Kalbermatter