The NRA and the supposed UN Global Gun Ban

[Ton Plomp]

I have one question, that always keeps me busy when reading this discussion:

In what third world country do you live that you only feel safe with a gun?

Ton

(Oh and I'm pissed that the USA has the right to read my bank details, but we will get back at cha)

[crelf]

In my experience, I've felt safer in places with fewer guns on the street. I'm all for people defending themselves, but the collateral damage is usually much more final when guns are involved to when they aren't. At the risk of totally hijacking this thread, I'm also totally against captial punishment, but my point is that I feel that way wether it is applied by the state or the public. Ok, now let's see how many people try to justify murder by calling it by another name...

[Grampa_of_Oliva_n_Eden]

... Ok, now let's see how many people try to justify murder by calling it by another name...

The bait has been smelt and rejected.

Ben

[PaulG.]

The bait has been smelt and rejected.

Ben

"Meat is murder".

Or is it "murder is meat"?

Edited December 7, 2009 by PaulG.

[crelf]

The bait has been smelt and rejected.

Damn it! How can I be beligerent when no one bites?

"Meat is murder". Or is it "murder is meat"?

I'm totally good with both of those A colleague of mine once said "God doesn't wnat us to be vegetarians, otherwise He wouldn't have made meat taste so damn good!"

[Gary Rubin]

I'm totally good with both of those A colleague of mine once said "God doesn't wnat us to be vegetarians, otherwise He wouldn't have made meat taste so damn good!"

http://www.smbc-comi...=comics&id=1722

EDIT: (how do I embed the comic?)

Edited December 7, 2009 by Gary Rubin

[BobHamburger]

Damn it! How can I be belligerent when no one bites?

I'll bite. In general I oppose capital punishment, simply because of the possibility of executing an innocent person. On the other hand, there are some people out there who are so irredeemably evil that they simply did not deserve to live any more; mass-murdering pedophiles like John Wayne Gacy and Ted Bundy come to mind. I believe that there needs to be a higher level of guilt in such cases; not merely beyond a reasonable doubt, but beyond any shadow of a doubt, incontrovertibly guilty and beyond social redemption. In only those cases do I believe that the state is justified in taking a life.

[asbo]

EDIT: (how do I embed the comic?)

[img=http://zs1.smbc-comics.com/comics/20091207.gif]

If you're using the fancy full post page, there's a little button two over from the smilie face which will turn an image's URL into the proper BBCode.

[crelf]

I believe that there needs to be a higher level of guilt in such cases; not merely beyond a reasonable doubt, but beyond any shadow of a doubt, incontrovertibly guilty and beyond social redemption. In only those cases do I believe that the state is justified in taking a life.

I think the gravity of the punishment doesn't lend itself to a gray-type argument: if you're for capital punishment, then how do you define "... beyond any shadow of a doubt, incontrovertibly guilty and beyond social redemption"? I'm sure there are plenty of people that will argue those words in many different ways. I don't think there can be a strict definition of any of that, and, due to the finality of the punishment, I can't see how basing a judgement on the interpretation of those words (or of any, for that matter) can be justified.

As an aside, I simply haven't been able to justify killing another person, irrespective of how evil I might consider them (I don't actually believe in "evil", but that's for another day). I think evil is a relative scale, and the decision to enforce capital punishment would require a significant lull in the evilness between what we would consider evil and just plain bad - and I don't think that lull exists. Until someone comes up with an evilometer that outputs a true or false, that is...

[BobHamburger]

I think the gravity of the punishment doesn't lend itself to a gray-type argument: if you're for capital punishment, then how do you define "... beyond any shadow of a doubt, incontrovertibly guilty and beyond social redemption"?

Avoiding gray areas is my goal also; that's why the whole "reasonable doubt" concept is insufficient in death-penalty cases. What I was getting at with the notion of "incontrovertible guilt" is a situation where there is no doubt whatsoever that the accused committed the crime. The accused is holding a smoking gun, the victim's blood is splattered all over the accused, DNA from the accused is found in the relevant body cavities of the victim, and 100 reputable witnesses saw the crime in broad daylight. Or, in the case of Gacy, the accused's basement contains the bodies of over 30 victims, all of whom having the accused's DNA on or in them. Evil, beyond social redemption, is illustrated when the accused asserts that they enjoyed what they did, they have no remorse, and they'll do it again if they can, and these statements are backed up by multiple psychological profiles which substantiate those assertions. The examples I brought up -- Gacy and Bundy -- illustrate both of these concepts well.

[PaulG.]

(I don't actually believe in "evil", but that's for another day).

How old are you?