Grampa_of_Oliva_n_Eden

Its obvious that LabVIEW as development environment is rather unusual, compared to common C/C++ and newer Java / .NET systems. However, similar architecture principles can be found in older software projects, such as Oberon and Component Pascal (look http://www.oberon.ch/blackbox.html)

It doesn

Yuri,

Thank you for providing the LV7.1 version of your test. I've duplicated your test in my own VI that I used for benchmarking (attached) and get similar results (local is about a factor of 2 faster than terminal). I'm still very surprised by this. You are correct that the citation I made from the NI app note referred to memory efficiency, not execution time, but my previous experience has always been that the two are very closely related.

One thing I did notice is that when I show buffer allocations in my vi, it shows me that there is an array allocation associated with the terminal, but not with the local variable. This seems inconsistent with NI's recommendations, which says that local variables create copies of the data. Are there any NI lurkers out there who can comment on this?

Gary

Please see attached mod of the previous.

I used "defer Panel updates" to be able to measure the updates w/o screen update times.

Repeated runs show that the terminal will SOMETIMES (do a bunch of ctrl-r) run as fast as the local.

The "nightmare" is now faster because I moved the reference node outside the loop.

Nice topic!

To quote one of my old girl friends daughter "I want to go fast Mommy!"

Ben

Download File:post-29-1147353606.vi

try it (вроде работает )

I do not know how "correct" my method is but I'll share it for the sake of conversation.

I deal with the three color components like the like they are vectors in color space.

To get a gey scale representation I take the square root of the sum of the three components squared and then divide by the max possible vector length (sqrt [ 3 X 255^2]).

the result of that value becomes the new R, G, and B values.

Ben

Hey - here's an added bonus to being a CLA: no resit required! (for the moment anyway ) My CLA expired this month, and I just got a new certificate in the mail - the accompanying letter said that nothing significant had changed since I took the exam, so voila! New certificate that expires in another 2 years! :thumbup:

Count your blessings!

They have just announced the new advanced course.

Hopefully the test will not be updated before it comes time for me to re-test.

Ben

I do not believe the type defs were ever intended to provide defalu data thay way.

I belive the the VI Analyzer even has an error that warns you about a default value in a typedef'd cluster constant.

I use a unique sub-VI to do this work.

The sub-VI simply has the typedef'd constatn with "bundle by name" nodes used to set the defaults I want. The Sub-VI returns the typed after the proper defaults have been inserted.

This technique gives you the ability to have more than one "default" value for your clusters.

I hope this made sense.

Ben

You are fortunate, I got last digest before weekend (April 28).

I get the daily version and my last update was yesterday (3-May) AM.

I usually see the new issue by this time.

Ben

Don't forget that RK has the most important certification of them all - he's a Knight of NI .

Excellent memory!

Ben

Well you are entitled to your opinion, but.... I just don't see it. I saw the same thing with network engineers I knew, and it is somewhat analogous. That is: people who came into network engineering just from years on the job, only to find some guy who passed a test and never did a thing would get a better job. That is just not how it works. NI certification says nothing about commitment. I am committed because I stay with NI material from job to job, company to company, then my own company. Commitment is not a test. I don't see your point really but it is one the larger NI alliance members are taking. I respect some of it, but don't really agree.

I also feel that the NI certification path says there is only one way to program. I saw all kinds of labview programming over the years; some bad, some good. But most of the best was not from guys taking tests.

I am also a CLA who works for an NI Alliance Partner.

[Rant = On]

I persoanlly do not like certifications (or anything that is acquired through the grading of an exam).

Unfortunately they (like university degrees) are a fact of the world in which we live.

When the people that have to make decisions where they have to choose between two options (people, companies, etc) regarding something in which they are not an expert, they will often use certifications as a way of distinguishing bewteen the two. In my opinion this is a "cop-out" and used used for justifying a descision that can not be justified otherwise.

Here is a self-deprecating example to make my point.

The last time I checked, one of the worlds top LV developers who's initials are RK is not a CLA.

If my boss came to me with his resume and someone with a resume identicle to mine, I would advise him to interview RK.

[Rant = Off]

So untill the world does away with the obsurd notion that people can be evaluated using tests, certifications are an evil we will have to "confront or die".

So I agree with what I think you are saying but urge to get the certification just for sake of employment.

Attempting pragmatism,

Ben

I found this is already an documented bug at NI. Here's a link to a partial workaround.

http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/websearch...3B?OpenDocument

Quintin

Thank you for the update Quintin!

Ben

... the discussion is actually about "illegal" evocation of Godwin's law.

I don't mean to bash Ben here, but since I raised a "Godwin" on Alfa once on this forum, I kinda feel strong about this ...

I'm glad you caught my point!

There is a fine line that seperates the proper and improper application of Godwin's Law. What I wrote (I thought) was wrong and was expecting to be corrected (eventually).

Reference to the historic event and the group responsible is not a call for Godwin but where to draw the line exactly...

Thanks for paying attention Dirk! :thumbup:

And just for the record, I have only heard about "Godwin's Law" recently, once on Alfa once on me. I am not complaining about it happening to me, but Alfa was on to a "thing" that was starting to get interesting.

I am still curious how it is applied.

Ben

...then we absorb light?

very interesting thought!

So if we drank enough beer fast enough could we abosrb so much light that it no longer reflects and we just appear to be a shadow or a type of "walking black hole"?

There may be some truth in this. From my personal observations, it appears that the enlightenment derived from a conversation seems to be inversely proportional to the amount of BEER consumed. Another is that bars (in the US) are generally rather dark and get darker as the night goes on. I had thought this was due to a lack of lighting sources, and never stoped to concider that the light may be getting consumed.

Ben

Dyslexia!

Now I'm curious. I've always thought that I've suffered, and now my 5 year old daughter shows signs of it (her teacher brought it up). I've been thinking about it quite a bit lately...

My question is, what percentage of LabVIEW users suffer from some sort of dyslexia? Could it be that dyslexic people gravitate towards LabVIEW because wires and dataflow free us from the details of text based programming?

I think it is quite high. Probably higher than some of us want to admit.

In my case I have been tested and as such qualify under the "Americans with Disabilities Act".

My research into the matter is good and bad. As of the last I checked there was absolutely nothing anyone can do to help. I believe Dyslexia to be quite common amoung scientists and engineers. Although society applies a stigma to the condition being labeled "learning disabled" is a very hard pill to swallow. Those that do have that condition will often develop coping techniques and can quite often mask the effect. Its not all bad though! I can read upside-down in a mirror as well as I can the normal way.

But your observation re:LV and dyslexia!

That is one of the big reasons I LOVE LabVIEW.

After working in those "other" languages and being frustrated not being able to SEE spelling errors that threw off my syntax, LV was a "Gift from God" delivered by way of Jeff K.

Re: Your duaghter

Encourage her.

Help her to ow to recognize when she has to be careful.

Help her develop compensating techniques (i.e using your finger to read is OK!)

Also help her figure out what extra gify God gave her to compensate and help her exploit it.

So to close for now let me speak for my fellow dyslexics by saying "We ain't dumb, we are just different."

Ben

BTW: AE was possibly dislexic and that is why he had trouble with math in the 4th grade.

OK,

I was probably a little to serious in my last posting. Let me try to lighten it up a little.

BEER

Any thoughts on that subject?

Ben

How about Beer's Law?

No do not like it.

My dislexic brain reads that as

"Beer wal"

which is close to

"Beer Hall" as in Beer Hall uprising.... :laugh:

So I again I vote for "Kring's Law".

Ben

What do we call it?

niwdoG's Law?

Kring's Law?

I vote for "Kring's Law".

But are these two laws really the recipricol of each other?

Example:

"This reminds of a time when I was drinking beer with a Nazi...."

Which of the two rules apply here?

Ben

Gret ideas!

Just think of the "kids" seeing LV -3d side by side with one of those "other" languages.

Which one do you think they would prefer?

Ben

Download File:post-29-1145195167.llb

In an attempt to get this thread back on theme again...

Attached is a llb that works with teh LV 3d PICTURE control toolkit to develop that image I posted earlier.

Copy of Simple 3D Object5 will give you a spiral in 3-space.

"Copy of Simple 3D Object6" will give you the distribution of cubes.

I found the axis very helpful in figuring out what I was doing. The rest is just offered as fodder for doing 3d rederings of code.

Ben

Yes the code is a mess. That is how my experimental code looks when when I am done playing.

So I walked away from my previous posting thinking "3d diagrams are a waste of time. LabVIEW already keeps track of layers of objects in a diagram." But then I thought "What about Cases structures, Stacked sequences and shift registers?"

I can see value in being able to see every case of a case structure.

I coudl envision tunnels feeding cases as bus bars connecting the "planes" of the events.

Sequence locals could almost make senses!

A 3d diagram may be a better idea than I first thought.

Ben

You're not confused Ben - you've got it!

i was afraid of that answer. :headbang:

Ben

Do you know what this topic reminds me of? Beer!

Well seeing that we already have a winner and this thread is not closed YET, let me ask....

If I understand

it is always good to talk about beer

and

it is always bad to talk about people who once were identified by a four letter word that starts with "N",

Then aren't we playing the game just the way the some bad people would want us to behave, not talking about the errors of history and quietly inebrating ourselves and calling that "good"?

Confused,

Ben

As a typical Australian, I can never pass up a beer-related bet - you're on! But how do we determine the NI is "actively" working on it? Just having a patent and thinking about it in an ethereal way every now and then doesn't surmount to active development...

We have a spy (not actually a spy but a LV Champion) headed that way latter this month!

Ed Dickens is headed down this month. We could ask him to look into this.

I'll post a suggestion to him in the Champions Forum. That does not mean we will get an answer we can share in public...

But then again it may be better not knowing!

Ben

As to 3D programming in LabVIEW I'm afraid I won't benefit much of such a feature. My left eye is basically lame so all those 3D hypes in the past were leaving me with some curiosity as to how 3D visisbility would really look like.

Rolf Kalbermatter

I can relate.

I am completely deaf in one ear nad have nevered experienced "stereo". I can only imagine based on what I see.

Re: this discussion in general

1st Thanks Irene for getting this started. Its about time we started talking about this.

2nd I suspect there is someone developing something along this line. That is why I think is good for us to talk about this now in public. There is no better time to express your desires for a new version of software than before it is announced.

So....

Will special "pointing devlices" be required?

Zooming seems like it will be required from day 1.

If you stop and think about it, LV diagrams are already 3-d, you just can't change your viewing angle.

What do you think?

Ben

Format/s c:

There is spyware out there on those "free" sites that will load up stuff that automatically "fixes" your home page sttings and stuff.

I use "Spy Sweeper" from Webroot because they had a free trail offer going. It fixed up my PC and has kept it very boring.

But then again...

I was the one who didn't know enough to post an image of my muppet.

Ben

It would be wonderful!!

Except if you have to debug someone else's messy code... :headbang:

At the risk of sounding crazier than normal...

We technically have all the tools we need to write this.

That image was done with the LV 3-d picture control tool-kit.

I have already done custom skins for the objects.

If a GUI interface was developed for it and coupled with scripting...

I'd love to see Darren write a "3-d VI Analyzer" to detect wires passing THROUGH objects.

Yes, we would have to keep these things well structured.

Ben

A well written VI in 3-d would be an absolute must!

Imagine trying to debug code that looks like this but with wires everywhere. Yeeeeaache.

Ben

Haha... Sorry about that. I guess i should follow the KISS ideology in my language too. :laugh:

Sure. If i am able to come up with one, i will definitely upload it. By the way, thanks for the great link!

Hi Ben,

I did look at what you guys did and was impressed. With regards to rotation for my XControls, you can have a look at the first Picture attachment

This is how i need the orientations of the individual components to change when the overall thing is rotated. While some components might change, some might not - for example string indicators should not change orientation within the XControl no matter what. Only then will they remain readable.

As regards the issue about tracing lines, have a look at the following picture.

As the Popup VI is moved about on the screen, the tracing lines will have to readjust and keep pointing to the popup. The reason is that several popups (each represents the details of one XControl) might be opened at one time by the user. Thus, we need the tracing lines to tell them explicitly which one belongs to which.

So far I am still trying to brainstorm. Thanks.

Yes, I'd be looking at using the picture control to help this out.

I'd use the picture control to display your widgets and rotate the image as required.

Christian example will show you how to rotate images.

You'll have to trachk the position of interesting points within the image so you know where the lines should be drawn.

Mouse down events on the picture could trigger making an off-screen control visable and postion it over the picture control.

You may want to concider using complex notation to track your widget postitions as well as the X-controls that you position over the picture control. It may make you math easier.

If you can specify a max number of "floatin controls" then have enough off-screen controls to allow all to be shown. If you can not specify a mix number, then only use the ""floaters" when the user is interacting with the control. Once they click outside it, do a "invoke node >>> Get Image" (NOTE: This technique was originall suggested by Jean-Pierre Drolet on the NI Dev-Exchange were he received 5 5-star ratings for that idea!) and insert the image of the control in the picture where the control had been. Hide the control until the user clicks and makes another active.

I used a variation on this technique in my model railroad. Since I did not want to have to re-write my code when my buddy decided to change the layout, I wrote it to draw the track plan based a configuration file. Foe each part of the layout, I had to provide different options. When an operator clicked on a track segment, an off-screen ring was populated with a list of options and then positioned over the picture control at the location the user clicked. They can then make the appropriate selection and the the ring was hidden and put away until next time.

So how does that sound to you?

As you work through this, pleas share some demo's of your results. That is how we managed to build that list in the first place.

Ben

In communism and capitalism the intellectuals are second class citizens anyway.

Ditto that!

Ben