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Everything posted by bsvingen

  1. This problem will allways be here due to the call by value nature of LabVIEW. The only practical way of storing data by ref is to put it in a cluster and store that cluster (an LVOOP object is more or less an advanced cluster). If you want to modify any data in that cluster, you have to get the cluster before you can do anything with the individual data. One alternative is to store each individual data in a LV2 global instead of a cluster. This will probably work, but will be very unpractical because you have to make get/set actions for every single element + wrappers because the LV2 global would have to be reentrant and would have to be called by reference node. Besides, you cant use LVOOP objects in such a configuration. Anyway, I have still not seen any satisfactory reason why LabVIEW just have to be call by value and not by ref. The parallelism reason just does not hold water because the main (often the only) reason for doing parallel runs is to be able to read/write the same data different places. This can only be done by using some kind of by ref system.
  2. I think you are being a bit negative here, maybe - because: Seriously, it is a lot of truth in those words, but maybe something like IMAQ is not the best project for open source. It is probably better to do it as a "one man show". If you know enough LabVIEW "to be dangerous" and a LOT about image aquisition and analysis, it should be quite possible IMO, but probably much more difficult the other way around. Maybe THE greatest strength of LabVIEW is that by maximizing on all the benefits that LabVIEW has to offer (interactive interfaces, graphs, interfaces to literaly all kinds of external devices and buses, extremely rapid code development, fast execution (can sometimes be really tricky - but still), allmost unlimited amount of functions and functionality, etc), you will have alot of headroom to consentrate on your particular field of expertice. The more complicated or less mainstream your field of expertice is, the more will good solutions and good applications be created by understanding that field instead of clever coding - as long as you know enough LabVIEW to be dangerous Of cource, you can say the same thing about all programming languages, but for those applications where you can take advantage of the benefits in LabVIEW, this will give you a tremendous advantage.
  3. There is a bunch of XML Script VIs in LabVIEW 8.2\vi.lib\_script\XML Scripting Does anyone know what these are for? Is it something to come, or can it be used now?
  4. I saw a strange help file some weeks ago. Actually several of these variant VIs have this help file text even though they are completely different.
  5. It depends on how this data is going to be used. Is it only saved, or is some of it going back in a loop. My experience with shared variables are that they are incredible slow, a factor 10000 or more for simple read and write compared to anything else you can think of (queues for instance). You should have plenty of processing power available, however, *steady* 10 ms timing with all that data could still be a problem if you do a lot of memory reallocations etc, so it is probably a good choice not do alot of type conversions unless you abselutely have to.
  6. My experience with LVOOP for simple data is that it's actually more efficient than typecasting (and variant). I don't know why, maybe the reason is that when using LVOOP there is no typecasting at all? It would be nice to know what exactly is going on, i imagine it works like this: Typecast: data is first flattened, then unflattened to the actual type Variant: data is flattened and the type info is stored along with the flattened data ?? LVOOP: data is just set into the cluster ??
  7. But this will be like comparing apples and oranges, besides you are not sending only a ref anymore. Look at my examples 4 and 5 which is a much better comparison.
  8. I don't understand how you get those results. Converting a queue ref to variant is just as efficient as typecasting it. Do you do something else than converting the ref?
  9. I just have to add one more thing When running the version with all the system VIs in a similar test as the previous tests, i get a value around 220 ms. That is when all the system VIs are called. IMO the system VIs are not that abysmal afterall, and can add alot of functionality. The problem is that they are locked (impossible to optimize) and poorly documented, so using OpenG variant VIs for the same purpose could probably be a better choice although i'm not sure if they have the same functionality. Download File:post-4885-1159207550.vi
  10. Well, I agree that some of the system VIs in labview do have abysmal performance, but i think you are a bit unfair when quoting those numbers. Attached is a much more balanced test. Here i use one variant attribute to store the type (for easy retreival). My numbers are 42 ms for variant and 37 ms for typedef with type. The variant is only slightly slower, but still have all the benefits of variants (full type info and versatility). Download File:post-4885-1159198639.vi Here is the "original" test with no type conversions showing variant and typedef with equal performance. Anyway, i'm not saying variant are better. Using variant will be a very different way of passing the data, but they do have equal performance both memory-vise and speed-vise with similar typedef. Variants also have several other very attractive features that only variants have. Download File:post-4885-1159199482.vi
  11. With variants you get a lot of other posibilities for automation later on, for instance in conversion. See the attached VI where int32 arrays are automatically casted to double array (the default type). It will also be safer because you can add errors when wrong queue/ref types accidentally comes in. Download File:post-4885-1159183482.vi
  12. Well, unless all it does is to turn on the bug
  13. Well, it seems that typecasting the contained types in queues does not work afterall. I made an identical setup as your picture, and although it seems to work for the number zero, putting anything else (3, 4 whatever) in the dbl array, and the int array will consist of just garbage The utility variant VIs (in ..\vi.lib\utility\variant.something)that seems to be able to set the type etc, will in fact do that, BUT they will also destroy the value. I have no idea if this is a bug, or if it is a feature. Aristos queue may know i hope? When they set the type in variants, but at the same time destroy the values, it seems to me that they have a very limited use, and i'm not sure what they can be used for. But you can still do the same thing with variant, but the conversion must be done by flattening, then unflattening with the correct typedef. The problem is that this will also produce the exact same garbage for numbers other than zero. Here is a vi (LV8.2) of the two versions of variant conversion using queue. Download File:post-4885-1159168331.vi
  14. Even though my show constant folding option is set, it does not show. It was OK in the beginning, but now it just doesn't work. Sometimes when i load VIs from this board, for instance, i can see the folding, but on my own VIs it does not show up. Edit: It seems that VI in a project is not showing constant folding and/or if the project explorer is opened first. If i open VIs not part of a project the constant folding is showing.
  15. OK, what i meant was subroutine priority. Typically for all floating point math is that they are very fast on modern PCs. In Labview an ordinary call to a VI takes often longer time then the math itself. The only way in labview to shorten that call is to set the VI to subroutine priority. The ideal for math functions are stateless VIs, VIs that take the input, do whatever calculations is needed and return the result without any overhead in terms of updating front panels etc. When a VI is set to subroutine priority it is closer to that ideal because it "turns off" alot of state book keeping and control updates. Usually i see a factor 2 improvement when setting a VI containing math to subroutine priority.
  16. I think it will be more efficient to convert the queue-ref to variant instead of typecasting the ref. I haven't tried it so i don't know for sure. Just a question: how do you measure the memory? EDIT: It will use the same memory, but it wont be "transformed" from variant to anything but the original type (at least not without the utility VIs for variant).
  17. If you want to interpolate, all the interpolation functions are standard VI with debug option set. The top VI is OK, it can be saved. Also the next level is OK, but then in the third level there is a "remove zero coefficient.. somethong" that is protected and impossible to modify. This means that i cannot set subroutine priority on the top level VI (it will be broken). As they are now (non subroutine and debug) i cannot use these VIs in one of my own applications used for simulation and analysis, they will be too slow. But it is also the principle. To me it is completely impossible to understand why someone would make a numerical interpolation library, and then set on all the brakes so the library runs as inefficient as possible, and on top of that make it impossible to relese the brakes. Anyway, i have been in similar discussions before, and if you don't have any applications that is required to run efficient (in terms of execution speed), then please just ignore this post, or the thread will just wander off track.
  18. This is one thing that annoys me more and more and degrades the usability of LabVIEW. A lot (most) of the VI included do not have subroutine priority by default. This is not a problem in general, but it starts to be a problem when these VIs are included in my own VIs that have subroutine priority. Before LV8 i had three options, i could: 1. Just change the priority of the system VIs, 2. Save a copy of the system VIs, and rename them slightly (add some __abc for instance) 3. Don't bother at all and change my own VI to "normal". What i usually did was to save a copy of the VIs. Then i could get everything at the priority i wanted, and i could send it to others, without they needing to change anything on their system (people generally do not want to change stuff like this). But from LV8 and even more in LV8.2, it is impossible to save copies since most of them are protected. Even worse, it is impossible to change anything on many of them. When upgrading applications from LV7 for instance, this is no problem, since the modded VIs get upgraded along with the rest, but when starting from scratch on an application in LV8.2 I see that this is getting more and more of a problem.
  19. In the general case I don't think VIs should be loaded either, but it would be nice to specify some VIs that loads. When you have many VIs and lots of folders it will be very difficult for others to find the main VIs.
  20. I just noticed that the "bug" is still there in some circumstances. The counter is only updated when using "Obtain pointer". This makes it possible to use a disposed pointer without an error if the get/set methods are used before obtain new pointer. I think this can be fixed by updating the pointer when disposing the pointer.
  21. :thumbup: Thanks alot. That was actually pretty neat and i can't see any performance penalty either. This will be included in the update.
  22. OK, thanks I was thinking mostly in terms of efficiency and simplicity, but i'm looking forward to see your implementation. (i must admit i am still not quite sure how the counter is to be implemented, will that be used instead of the BOOL array?)
  23. I think maybe i understand what you mean. But IMO a pointer is just an integer with a value of an address in memory. When you dispose a pointer, and then decides to use it later, this is bug done by the programmer, and a very serious one. I agree that it is easy to do such an error, but that is just the way it is. Lets see the alternatives (just on top of my head): The first alternative is to use pointers to pointers to data, then you can invalidate the pointer at the same time as you dispose of the data. ie when you invalidate a pointer one place, it will be invalidated all places. A "New" function would then create a pointer that points to a pointer that has the value of -1 (or NIL). When you set data, the second pointer gets the address of the data. Then when you dispose, you free the data array index and set the second pointer to -1 again. In your example the "get data" of the disposed pointer would return an error (invalid pointer), since it will point to -1. Still, this would not be foolproof since you still can call (by accident) the disposed copyed pointer before you actually dispose it (there is no requirement to wire the error wire). Anyway, when using pointers to pointers i see that your solution would be quite meaningful, but it would not be foolprof, using a disposed pointer is still a programming bug. The second alternative is that by brancing a wire with a reference, you also create a copy of the data that is referenced to. This will be a call by value approach, and is what happends when you branch an Array, but this is not what i want, and would be meaningless to do since i would not get a reference. The third alternative would be NOT to dispose the data, but simply end the wire (no throughput). This would actually work, but with the risk of filling up the memory. Anyway, i kind of like the pointer to pointer approach, although i'm not sure if it actually would work (how to dispose the second pointer for instance? You would probably need two functions: dispose data and dispose pointer ?, i don't know).
  24. JFM, I think maybe my documentation and naming is a bit uncorrect, and certainly the name "General Reference System" that i have used for the other LV8.2 general system using variants. The system is a pointer system (in a simulated sort of way ), and not a reference system. References in LabVIEW are completely different from ordinary pointers, and therefore it is wrong to call these pointers for references. References in LabVIEW are more like pointers to LV objects (controls, VIs etc), and sometimes they are more like pointers to pointers of LV objects (I don't know if they actually are pointer to pointers, but queue refs seems to act that way).
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