Mistreatment of new members

[robijn]

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ May 3 2007, 01:37 AM)

This discussion is going in the wrong direction. My original comment was not to HH's or newbies. It was directed towards the forum regulars. Be nice! We all already acknowledge that Homework Huster's are not liked. Fine, that is an issue separate from all other.

You can't be serious here. This is what was the reason for their respons.

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ May 3 2007, 01:37 AM)

Other than that, ALL other questions are welcome whether they be simple or complex. I am the first to post stupid questions here on LAVA. If we don't then NI will never fix the problems that plague new users of a feature.

We all sometimes ask a stupid question, it will be easily recognized and it's not the point. If you acknowledge that NI people are reading the forum, you should also understand that they will do this less if there is less interesting information for them. It is more interesting than NI's forum because its level and the high information density.

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ May 3 2007, 01:37 AM)

There has been discussion of forwarding new users to the NI Forums. Again, the wrong attitude. I mean, if that doesn't sound like "we don't want your kind here" I don't know what does? Forwarding people to the NI Forums is not acceptable. Links to solutions or key examples/articles are fine but a general "brush off" to the dark side is just wrong and insulting.

Then why is the forum called LAVA ? Who is at the wrong location and could have know ? Me as an LabVIEW Advanced (V.A.) user ?

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ May 3 2007, 01:37 AM)

In order to put a closure to this discussion, I am implementing the following policies/procedures:

Of course you're right about the options of informing a moderator of an abuse, but I think the tone of your respons is not very correct against the "good" users. The points are all aimed at the "good" users. Please acknowledge that there have not been any excesses yet. These good users appearently were able to contain the problems. Why do we need to use the absolute moderator super power system when the normal user can appearently still handle it ? LAVA is still small enough so that we don't need 3 military ranking layers with their bureaucracy. The setup "For real abuses there's always the moderator" gives me a much safer feeling.

I hope LAVA will continue to serve the puspose that it was set up for. If too much noise is present it will not do so anymore for me and I will use it less. If more users do this, there will be a gradual process of decay over the coming years.

Joris

[Tomi Maila]

I just want to point out in this thread that a friend of mine is not reading LAVA too often because the discussion here is mostly too obvious and straighforward to him and he feels the time is wasted reading too obvious discussions. The more there is discussion on LabVIEW basics, the more there are advanced users starting to feel the same way as my friend. LAVA or no other forum can never serve everybody. We need to choose who do we want to serve. We will always loose some users, we need to choose which one we do want to loose.

Tomi

[Michael Aivaliotis]

QUOTE(robijn @ May 3 2007, 02:13 PM)

These good users appearently were able to contain the problems. Why do we need to use the absolute moderator super power system when the normal user can appearently still handle it ? LAVA is still small enough so that we don't need 3 military ranking layers with their bureaucracy. The setup "For real abuses there's always the moderator" gives me a much safer feeling.

The people that were "abused" sent me personal messages complaining about their treatment. The people doing the "abusing" (I use the word "abuse" for lack of a better word) are not official LAVA spokespeople so I want to make it clear as to who does the abusing. If anyone is going to abuse anybody it should be me. I never mentioned any layered system. Anybody can still be involved. Just click the Report button anytime. There is nothing else you need to do after that. A moderator will take over. Just in case you all are not aware, the only moderator right now is me. Let me be the bad guy and take responsibility for cleaning up the forums, you don't have to. I already do this on a daily basis anyway.

QUOTE(robijn @ May 3 2007, 02:13 PM)

I hope LAVA will continue to serve the purpose that it was set up for. If too much noise is present it will not do so anymore for me and I will use it less. If more users do this, there will be a gradual process of decay over the coming years.

What do you consider noise? Questions like: "I'm getting error code 15 when running this DLL"? People come to the forums to ask questions and get problems solved. Sometimes, there are exploratory posts that lead into interesting discussions but they can't all be like that. I always start my posts with a question. I can't think of anyway else to do it.

It's true that we are reaching a state where LAVA is getting very popular and everyone is joining in the discussions. You cannot blame people or scold them for walking into a "members only" club where there is no doorman, nobody checking your pass, and no sign on the wall. If that's what you all want then I don't see any other way than to have no guest access, login required, a monthly fee to join and a photocopy of your CLA certificate. Everyone is familiar with the experts exchange. This will definitely clean up the forums.

On the other hand, we can just move on and try to be as involved as possible in LAVA. When I started the forums, I was the only guy answering posts, sometimes spending an hour or 2 rewriting someone's code to repost to the forums. Other times posting examples and long answers. I had no Idea who was on the other end nor cared. I'm just generous that way. But I'm sure that by doing this I earned many loyal members and inspired others to do the same.

It's unfortunate that there are some HH's that want packaged solutions to their school problems. These people will be dealt with and this discussion will be history. I'm not concerned about that. What I am concerned about is that as a result of this discussion, we now have long time members doubting if they are advanced enough. What is the criteria for advanced? Can someone define this? Other than checking everyone's certification credentials I don't see how? Putting all LAVA members through a test? Is this really necessary?

The only practical solution at the moment is to let the natural order of things dictate as it always has. We all need to roll up our sleeves, come out of the shadows, and put in the effort to get involved in the discussions. The more "advanced" noise we create the better. :thumbup:

[Dirk J.]

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ May 4 2007, 12:13 PM)

The people that were "abused" sent me personal messages complaining about their treatment.

Since you know which posts this concerns, do you have the feeling that the mistreatment had to do with the topic of their question or problem, or with the way it is asked (complying to forum etiquette)?

QUOTE

What I am concerned about is that as a result of this discussion, we now have long time members doubting if they are advanced enough. What is the criteria for advanced? Can someone define this?

For example: if you are able to communicate about your problem, as in "I'm getting error code 15 when running this DLL", perhaps with some more detail or code snips, then you're advanced. If you "need solve projec str8away, pleazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz u help", then you're not. Regardless of the topic.

[i2dx]

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ May 4 2007, 12:13 PM)

[...] Other than checking everyone's certification credentials I don't see how? Putting all LAVA members through a test? Is this really necessary?

@Michel

no.

I say it again: most of the members here are "real men", playing with real expensive toys (e.g. LV + RT + FPGA ) and are responsible für 100.000 testing systems. We should be a) intelligent enough and b) *hard* enough to deal with a few HHs. If there is to much *noise* then maybe we will need Moderators in the future, but I feel that is not necessary at the moment.

@all:

concerning the idea of an l33t-forum. I tried that and the result was: one year => 22 members, 2 members are "constantly" posting, the one is me, the other is a newbie - which leads me to the conclusion: there is no market for such a community

last but not least: if there is a negative maximum, there is a positive maximum, too. If the negative max is a HH, the positive max is a *guru* who hovers in selfconfidence and does not even think about answering a question of one of these uncertified pseudo wannabe LV maggots ... it's up to you, to decide, if you want to be an extreme, or if you want to stay in the middle

[robijn]

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ May 4 2007, 12:13 PM)

I never mentioned any layered system. Anybody can still be involved.

That's right, I think I overreacted a bit here.

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ May 4 2007, 12:13 PM)

What do you consider noise? Questions like: "I'm getting error code 15 when running this DLL"? People come to the forums to ask questions and get problems solved. Sometimes, there are exploratory posts that lead into interesting discussions but they can't all be like that.

That's a bit the problem with a moderator system. There's no democracy about what's noise or not there, so because of this absoluteness it is only usable useful for very clear abusive cases. I would like some automatic way to sort on the expected interestingness of the post. Some proposals have been made already. I think it's worth another topic.

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ May 4 2007, 12:13 PM)

If that's what you all want then I don't see any other way than to have no guest access, login required, a monthly fee to join and a photocopy of your CLA certificate. Everyone is familiar with the

experts exchange

. This will definitely clean up the forums.

Hehe, I've got no CLA (yet). But then I have to raise the question should my boss be willing to pay for LAVA...

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ May 4 2007, 12:13 PM)

What I am concerned about is that as a result of this discussion, we now have long time members doubting if they are advanced enough.

I think it's always good to ask yourself if you are at the right place...

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ May 4 2007, 12:13 PM)

The only practical solution at the moment is to let the natural order of things dictate as it always has. We all need to roll up our sleeves, come out of the shadows, and put in the effort to get involved in the discussions. The more "advanced" noise we create the better. :thumbup:

Sounds perfect to me !

Joris

[Jim Kring]

One thing that seems to add noise is the use of text/instant message abbreviations (e.g., "plz u help me") in postings. What do you think about a LAVA ban on text message abbreviations in postings (with the exception of acronyms, which are fine, IMNSHO)?

[crelf]

QUOTE(robijn @ May 5 2007, 01:27 AM)

There's no democracy about what's noise or not there...

LAVA is a Mike-ocracy, not a democracy :laugh: Mike's always been more than patient and open to listening to our suggestions - personally I like the way it is (but that could be because I grew up in a fedral constitutional monarchy. Come to think of it, that would make Mike my King... Long live the King! Long live the King!)

QUOTE(Jim Kring @ May 5 2007, 02:00 AM)

One thing that seems to add noise is the use of text/instant message abbreviations (

e.g.

, "plz u help me")...

Banning text-speak would be pretty difficult to police, and I'm not sure it would acheive much. I don't think text-speak itself is the issue - perhaps I don't like it because it usually goes hand-in-hand with HHs Whilst I don't like too much text-speak, I can usually look past it, just like I can look past improper grammar - each to their own.

[Ton Plomp]

Now can someone show me where it is stated we have to talk english?

I think we can ask Mike to close this thread, we are currently more debating over the forums than actually using them!

Ton

[crelf]

QUOTE(tcplomp @ May 5 2007, 02:41 AM)

Now can someone show me where it is stated we have to talk english?

Great point - I don't think you should have to speak any language in particular, just be aware that you'll get fewer readers if you don't post in English.

[Tomi Maila]

QUOTE(crelf @ May 4 2007, 07:58 PM)

Great point - I don't think you should have to speak any language in particular, just be aware that you'll get fewer readers if you don't post in English.

Hehe, en oikein usko että tämä keskustelupalsta toimisi kovin hyvin jos kaikki käyttäisivät omaa kieltään. Toisaalta olisihan se kiva kirjoittaa suomeksi...

Tomi

[i2dx]

QUOTE(Tomi Maila @ May 4 2007, 07:30 PM)

Hehe, en oikein usko että tämä keskustelupalsta toimisi kovin hyvin jos kaikki käyttäisivät omaa kieltään. Toisaalta olisihan se kiva kirjoittaa suomeksi...

Tomi

ja zefix, wenn'dst ma so kummst, dann red i nua no boarisch!

(this was bavarian slang )

[Ton Plomp]

Ja ik denk toch dat deze berichten niet voldoen aan de LAVA stijlgids mbt. tot de constructieve waarde van een post..

mzzl

Ton

[Michael Aivaliotis]

Sometimes you need to make decisions like a Ninja. Kill first ask questions later.

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Let's all have fun. Thank you all for your comments and opinions on the matter. If there is anything else I need to be aware of, please don't hesitate to PM me or report a post.

This thread is now closed.