TG Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 Back to the ergonomics I have tried two different mouse technologies. Evoluent and Zero tension. BTW researching this is pretty tough. Most of the products out there are evaluated by the companies that sell them. Not so easy to get the real story in all the clutter. The Evoluent is nice but it does not address carpel tunnel/tendonitis injuries completely. My wrist forearm would hurt after awhile using it. The Zero tension is extremely comfortable and I can use for long periods with no pain. Only problem is the accuracy really stinks so for LabVIEw it is not working for me but everything else works fine. I am looking for pictures or success stories based on ergonomic assistance (bordering on disability assistive) devices? Thank You JR Quote Link to comment
LAVA 1.0 Content Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 QUOTE(John Rouse @ Jul 25 2007, 01:24 PM) I am looking for pictures or success stories based on ergonomic assistance (bordering on disability assistive) devices? I remember reading that Scott Adams uses a Wacom device for creating the Dilbert comics. I don't know if LabVIEW would work well with this device or not. You can read a story about Scott's problem and a bit about the Wacom here. Maybe a change of pointing device and viewing angle might help... http://www.wacom.com/cintiq/ Quote Link to comment
orko Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 QUOTE(John Rouse @ Jul 25 2007, 10:24 AM) The Evoluent is nice but it does not address carpel tunnel/tendonitis injuries completely. My wrist forearm would hurt after awhile using it. Could you elaborate on this a little? I just looked at this vertical mouse and was very impressed with its design. What was uncomfortable about it? QUOTE(John Rouse @ Jul 25 2007, 10:24 AM) The Zero tension is extremely comfortable and I can use for long periods with no pain. Only problem is the accuracy really stinks so for LabVIEw it is not working for me but everything else works fine. This design is one that I've never seen before (kind of looks like a joystick instead of a mouse). Was the accuracy problem inherent in the mouse itself or is this something that you would think would become better after using/getting used it? I'm seriously looking at trackballs and vertical/semi-vertical mice, because I've been noticing the tell-tale signs of carpel tunnel in the last couple of years. However, I don't want to explore the touchscreen/pen option at this time, since funds for this kind of thing are pretty tight at the moment. What I'm looking for is a less-than $100 option that I can sell to the boss. So far the evoluent has been the closest fit for me and the budget...so I'm very interested in more reviews of this style of vertical mouse. Quote Link to comment
george seifert Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 I really like my trackball for LV input. I've been using it for about 4 years now. Simple, pretty inexpensive and you can use it with either hand. No hand or wrist issues like I had with my old mouse. George Quote Link to comment
Grampa_of_Oliva_n_Eden Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 I am still using a "Kensington expert Mouse" aka trackball. I also wear CT wrist braces. Within seconds of first putting them on, my wrists seemed better (not fixed but the further damage was stopped). I use a keyborad tray that mounts under the desk and slides out allows for adjustment in height and angle. It is adjusted to hold the keyborad under my hands when they are resting relaxed on the arms of my chair. The trackball is also held by the keyborad tray and I have proped it up so that its base is parallel to my hand when it resting comfortably on the arm of my chair WITHOUT twisting my wrist. Looking back, I believe I was suffering from two conditions (at least). 1) The mouse requires I hold it steady while clicking. The track ball does not require being held still. If you do not touch the ball, the cursor does not move. 2) Twisting my hand such that the palm was parallel to the floor. I suspect us LV types are exploring new teritory because we need to use the mouse so much. Most CT solutions are aimed at keying. If you are waking up at night with shooting pain in your forearms, wear the braces when you sleep. I also found that driving my car without wrist braces was bad. If you need pictures I will try to get some. As it stands now, I am pain free and have been so for for almost a year. I do not have to wear my braces while sleeping or driving now. Trying to help (cause I been there), Ben Quote Link to comment
TG Posted July 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 QUOTE(orko @ Jul 25 2007, 06:44 PM) Could you elaborate on this a little? I just looked at this vertical mouse and was very impressed with its design. What was uncomfortable about it?I'm seriously looking at trackballs and vertical/semi-vertical mice, because I've been noticing the tell-tale signs of carpel tunnel in the last couple of years. However, I don't want to explore the touchscreen/pen option at this time, since funds for this kind of thing are pretty tight at the moment. What I'm looking for is a less-than $100 option that I can sell to the boss. So far the evoluent has been the closest fit for me and the budget...so I'm very interested in more reviews of this style of vertical mouse. Thing is its supposed to change the orientation of the hand by 90 deg and this is whetre the comfort comes in. (as in natural as holding a beer can) Only thing for me was you dont really hold it. All you can do is put your hand up against it. Its not a full 90 deg cause its shaped kinda like a end of a football. I thought it was swell for the first day then I realized by day 2 It was not (for me) as good as I had hoped. (Keep in mind my hand is totally porked so I am forced to be very picky about it.) It does not support the hand at all and the tendonitis is still encouraged by the mouse clicking. EVeryones different so my bad might be your good. Im afraid the best we can do is take a best guess and hope. On the other one Its a bit clumsy to move around but oh man is it comfy. I can surf web for hours with no pain at all. (again this is me) I can do labVIEW fairly well with it but the lack of accuracy is a real pain. I know a trackball might end up being my ultimate fix but have used one Logitek and did not like it. It feels cheap and the ball hits up against gimbals or something. Anyway I keep trying. I figure sooner or later Ill find ultimate solution. QUOTE(george seifert @ Jul 25 2007, 07:59 PM) I really like my trackball for LV input. I've been using it for about 4 years now. Simple, pretty inexpensive and you can use it with either hand. No hand or wrist issues like I had with my old mouse. George DO they come with scroll buttons now or is it still by using the two button trick? QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 25 2007, 08:32 PM) I am still using a "Kensington expert Mouse" aka trackball. I also wear CT wrist braces. Within seconds of first putting them on, my wrists seemed better (not fixed but the further damage was stopped). I use a keyborad tray that mounts under the desk and slides out allows for adjustment in height and angle. It is adjusted to hold the keyborad under my hands when they are resting relaxed on the arms of my chair. The trackball is also held by the keyborad tray and I have proped it up so that its base is parallel to my hand when it resting comfortably on the arm of my chair WITHOUT twisting my wrist. Looking back, I believe I was suffering from two conditions (at least). 1) The mouse requires I hold it steady while clicking. The track ball does not require being held still. If you do not touch the ball, the cursor does not move. 2) Twisting my hand such that the palm was parallel to the floor. I suspect us LV types are exploring new teritory because we need to use the mouse so much. Most CT solutions are aimed at keying. If you are waking up at night with shooting pain in your forearms, wear the braces when you sleep. I also found that driving my car without wrist braces was bad. If you need pictures I will try to get some. As it stands now, I am pain free and have been so for for almost a year. I do not have to wear my braces while sleeping or driving now. Trying to help (cause I been there), Ben QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 25 2007, 08:32 PM) I am still using a "Kensington expert Mouse" aka trackball. I also wear CT wrist braces. Within seconds of first putting them on, my wrists seemed better (not fixed but the further damage was stopped). I use a keyborad tray that mounts under the desk and slides out allows for adjustment in height and angle. It is adjusted to hold the keyborad under my hands when they are resting relaxed on the arms of my chair. The trackball is also held by the keyborad tray and I have proped it up so that its base is parallel to my hand when it resting comfortably on the arm of my chair WITHOUT twisting my wrist. Looking back, I believe I was suffering from two conditions (at least). 1) The mouse requires I hold it steady while clicking. The track ball does not require being held still. If you do not touch the ball, the cursor does not move. 2) Twisting my hand such that the palm was parallel to the floor. I suspect us LV types are exploring new teritory because we need to use the mouse so much. Most CT solutions are aimed at keying. If you are waking up at night with shooting pain in your forearms, wear the braces when you sleep. I also found that driving my car without wrist braces was bad. If you need pictures I will try to get some. As it stands now, I am pain free and have been so for for almost a year. I do not have to wear my braces while sleeping or driving now. Trying to help (cause I been there), Ben Thanks Ben Kensington expert mouse and wrist braces. You mean the long ones like the Futuro type of isd it just a small brace around the wrist itself? Ill have to look that one up I was thinking about just using left hand for clicking and maybe a right handed ball for positioning. QUOTE(LV Punk @ Jul 25 2007, 05:53 PM) I remember reading that Scott Adams uses a Wacom device for creating the Dilbert comics. I don't know if LabVIEW would work well with this device or not. You can read a story about Scott's problem and a bit about the Wacom here. Maybe a change of pointing device and viewing angle might help... http://www.wacom.com/cintiq/ That picture sure looks good to me. If only I could wire like that and use left hand for clicking I think I would be all set for another 20 yrs. .... Quote Link to comment
dannyt Posted July 27, 2007 Report Share Posted July 27, 2007 Hi, I have been having trouble recently and have been playing with a number of options. Believe me this is a double problem if you happen to be left handed as very few decent mice are offered in Left Handed variants. I am currently using a Left Handed version of the Evoluent mouse in my left hand, when I started using it there was much improvement, but as time goes on it seems to be less effective. I think the only way I can really help my left hand is by not using it so much so in the last few weeks I have AT THE SAME TIME added a Right Handed Logitech TrackMan Wheel mouse and I am trying to force myself to switch between the two options. This option is working quite well and I have surprised myself with what I can do with my right hand. I still cannot use it for actual LabVIEW wiring , but I now do most of my Web surfing and general desktop stuff with the trackball. One mouse I tried and I really liked was the 3M mouse show below, the only problem for me was they only do a right handed version and in the end I bought the left handed Evoluent instead something I am beginning to regret. http://forums.lavag.org/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=6460http://forums.lavag.org/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=6459 cheers Danny Quote Link to comment
Grampa_of_Oliva_n_Eden Posted July 27, 2007 Report Share Posted July 27, 2007 Yes I use the "Futuro" type. Three velcro strips, Palm Wirst and forearm - These wear out after repeated washings. Aluminum splint - Take them out before thowing in the laundry. The washer dryer combo can rally mangle them. The older models were rather crude. The newer one are shaped better to fit the palm. Logitech track ball - My wife bought me one of those and I did not like it, the ball was too light. They even (if I remember corrctly) had an extra ring to dampen the ball that I guess they thought would make the ball feel more massive. I tossed the ring in about 3 minutes of use. That critter is gather dust on my shelf. THe Kennisington track balls have supstantial mass. They resemble a pool ball in size and mass. I like the mass because it lets me "throw" the cursor from one side of the screen to the other with a single flick of my finger. The same thing with a mouse would require at least three mouse swipes. The trackball only requires moving three fingers (and no writs). Thumb is left click, index positions mouse, ring finger right-clicks. They work as well left-handed as they do right-handed (Yes I am another lefty). I have about a half dozen of the Kensington trackballs in variouse state of operability. The are very well built (roller bearing support ball, encoders track motion) I have worn out the right click buttons more than once but have been able swap the switches (yes I still remeber how to solder) and they just keep going. Kennistongton has replaced two of them for free. Drawbacks: Expensive - $100 + Ball is not held in place. When carrying it into customer sites, have had to chase the ball across the parking lot when it fell out of the socket. Special note: For custmer visits I use the mouse pad thingy featured in the thread I posted on NI's forum. It is not large enough to hold the new trackballs and not quite stiff enough to hold the track ball. I managed to stiffen it up by adding a steel plate under the pad. By flipping it over, the edges of the pad do not interfere with the trackball. I use some mini bungy cords to hold the trackball to the pad. Once I have straped this gizmo to the arm of the chair, my trackball is in "beer can postition". Ben Quote Link to comment
TG Posted July 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2007 Ben How do you do the scroll function? Is it by pressing both buttons and using index finger on the ball? Quote Link to comment
Grampa_of_Oliva_n_Eden Posted July 27, 2007 Report Share Posted July 27, 2007 QUOTE(TG @ Jul 26 2007, 01:43 PM) BenHow do you do the scroll function? Is it by pressing both buttons and using index finger on the ball? It has a scroll wheel top center. Ben Quote Link to comment
TG Posted July 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2007 QUOTE(dannyt @ Jul 26 2007, 08:33 AM) Hi,in the end I bought the left handed Evoluent instead something I am beginning to regret. http://forums.lavag.org/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=6460http://forums.lavag.org/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=6459 cheers Danny Truth be known the evoulent is still a long ways better than a regular mouse and it has the precision needed for labview. Its also easy to transition to it since its really just a sideways mouse (well almost sideways). I also agree the efectiveness (relief) seems to diminish with time. How accurate is the 3M one for labVIEW? Heck, l I may just end up buying them all before Im done, hehe. QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 26 2007, 05:50 PM) It has a scroll wheel top center. Ben Nice Thanks man good info! Quote Link to comment
Louis Manfredi Posted August 1, 2007 Report Share Posted August 1, 2007 QUOTE(TG @ Jul 26 2007, 01:43 PM) BenHow do you do the scroll function? Is it by pressing both buttons and using index finger on the ball? My Kensington track ball (Expert mouse m/n 64325) has a big ring around the ball for the scroll wheel, works pretty naturally for me. My wrists seem best if I switch back & forth-- use the ball for a year, regular mouse for a few weeks, etc. Louis Quote Link to comment
LAVA 1.0 Content Posted August 3, 2007 Report Share Posted August 3, 2007 For all; there is a /. discussion on trackballs vs. mice. As usual, lots of crap mixed in with some good info... Quote Link to comment
dannyt Posted August 3, 2007 Report Share Posted August 3, 2007 QUOTE(TG @ Jul 26 2007, 06:54 PM) How accurate is the 3M one for labVIEW? I found I could be a little LabVIEW with the 3M one but as they only do a right handed one and I am left handed it is not really a fair test. It was VERY comfortable to hold and move, much more so than the Evoluent. Danny Quote Link to comment
LAVA 1.0 Content Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Just an idea, "train your wrist to similar yet different exercises". I started playing the piano more often and now I can do up to 3 weeks coding marathons without wrist pain ; before I was limited to 1 week. Hard to say if both are related because I also changed my chair and my mouse, but I do think it had positive impact. Quote Link to comment
crelf Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 QUOTE(TiT @ Aug 17 2007, 09:24 PM) I started playing the piano more often and now I can do up to 3 weeks coding marathons without wrist pain... My main kit is in storage back in Oz, so I have a "miniKit" over here - it really helps strengthen my back (not to mention get all my frustrations out ) Plug in your favorite Zune, and play the afternoon away... http://forums.lavag.org/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=6669''>http://forums.lavag.org/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=6669'>http://forums.lavag.org/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=6669 Quote Link to comment
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