Olympic Torch Run In San Francisco

[Irene_he]

Are anyone from San Francisco watching the olympic torch run? I know some of you are from San Francisco.

I am watching the Beijing 2008 Olympic torch run in San Francisco life in Internet right now. Hope it is a smooth run unlike what happened in Paris and London.

It seems some western media is using Tibet issue to against Beijing 2008 Olympic, obvious lies from some western media angered and hurt the NORMAL chinese people outside and inside the China. Especially German "Spiegel" magazine.

By the way, I am not a chinese spy like what German "Spiegel" magazine had on it's cover page, they said all chinese students are spy, Oh ja, what a narrow mind... It brought me to a memory over 10 years ago, sitting in front of TV in an appartment in Berlin in Germany, watching the report regarding the Chinese won a Olympic gold medal, the way that TV guy said, made the blood pressure went high, and I remembered that I wanted to write a letter to that TV station to protest...Human right is not true human right if that only means to "your people". Well, that said, I have to say there are some very wise German people, I hope this post does not make anybody mad, but I feel the responsibility to speak out.

Well, good thing is that my blood pressure level is normal since I live in Canada and I really appreciate the generality of American people that I know, I learn a lot from them. I think American people are different from American politics.

Wish the "world peace"

PS: I hope this post is not boycotted.

Irene

[Justin Goeres]

While sidestepping a debate about the Tibet issue itself, I don't think the protests that are following the torch around the world should be a surprise to anyone. There are a lot of people around the world who believe the situation in the Tibet Autonomous Region is an illegal military occupation, and who see China's record on human rights (in general, not just relative to Tibet) as one of the worst in the world. For those reasons alone, protests should have been expected.

But the situation with the torch is even worse than that, because of the way China has handled the monk protests that started last month. If people already think China is an oppressive, militaristic, authoritarian regime and then they kick all the foreign journalists out of the areas of unrest and blame all the injuries & fatalities on the protestors then China shouldn't be surprised when all the people who already don't like them get even angrier.

If there's a lack of understanding of the situation on the part of the protestors at the torch runs, I think there's an equal lack of understanding in the Chinese government and the IOC about what it would mean to bring the Olympics, "a symbol of peach and cooperation," as an IOC official called it the other day, to a country with a history of misunderstanding the degree to which the Western world perceives it to be the exact opposite of those things.

Just my :2cents: . And Irene, I don't think you're a spy .

[LAVA 1.0 Content]

Hi Irene!

Thanks for breaking the ice on this subject. The torch run set off a minor fire storm last night when talking to my buddy and wife. I'll let the details of that interaction by the side but since it quickly becomes a matter of philosophy, but I'll pick-up on another point.

All too often "American" media takes a short-cut and lumps the entire United States together as a single entity with a common set of values, etc. What I would like to stess is that this is far from the truth. As the proper names indicates, the US is a set of "united" "states". THe US is really a collection of 50 sepearte contries. There are parts of the US that think very differently. I believe a "safe" case in point is Dennis Kusinich (sp?). I have heard "American Media" report about his run for president as if he was some sort of nut-case. What is seldom recognized is that the state of Ohio has repeatedly returned him to office (I lift a virtual mug of beer* :beer: to Ohio for their "in your face" attitude).

Being a resident of Pennsylvania (just over the border from OH and WV) the are reports I hear from other parts of the US that make me want to scream. I have often asked out loud "is ther anyway we can give XX back to YY ?", "What if we paid YY to take them back?".

Ben

* Please note I am invoking "Kring's Law".

[crelf]

QUOTE (neB @ Apr 10 2008, 08:57 AM)

All too often "American" media takes a short-cut and lumps the entire United States together as a single entity with a common set of values, etc. What I would like to stess is that this is far from the truth.

The same is true for any country, state, province, region, etc in the world. That's why it burns me so much when someone says something like "I hate the French" - my response is "Have you met all of them?" I've travelled a fair bit across the world and have settled on the idea that people are people - irrespective on where they are or what value system they grew up with. I'm not interested in changing anyone just because they have different beliefs or ideals than me - I'm more interested in learning from them to understand their point of view. Who knows: maybe I'm the one who's skewed? No one is better or worse than anyone else, they're just different. Oh, and before I conclude my off-topic rant: another saying I really struggle with is "they don't know any better" - it's condecending, and, when you think about what it really means, ridiculous. Try something like "they don't know any different" instead.

PS: If you're interested in finding about more about my way of thinking, check out Dharma. I'm by no means a Buddhist, Hinduist, Sikhist, Jainist, etc (they're religons based on the underlying principles of it), but I kinda get the idea of Dharma.

QUOTE (neB @ Apr 10 2008, 08:57 AM)

* Please note I am invoking "Kring's Law".

Noted: there'll be a frosty beverage waiting for you at NI-Week.

QUOTE (neB @ Apr 10 2008, 08:57 AM)

I have often asked out loud "is ther anyway we can give XX back to YY ?", "What if we paid YY to take them back?"

Yes - in an Absolut world...

[Justin Goeres]

QUOTE (crelf @ Apr 10 2008, 05:33 AM)

I've travelled a fair bit across the world and have settled on the idea that people are people - irrespective on where they are or what value system they grew up with. I'm not interested in changing anyone just because they have different beliefs or ideals than me - I'm more interested in learning from them to understand their point of view. Who knows: maybe I'm the one who's skewed? No one is better or worse than anyone else, they're just different.

Normally I disdain quotes and aphorisms, but a good one I heard recently was along the lines of, "If meet someone and you think they're not an interesting person, you haven't listened to them long enough."

[Irene_he]

Thanks for everyone that posted their opinion and speak out what they think. It hurts brain to think on this heavy thing, but I guess I have the responsibility to tell the world what I think, after all I have travelled quite some places in the world and see both side of the world.

1. Western likes a lot to talk about human rights and especially like to criticise China for lack of that. I agree that China has room to improve on that. But on the other hand, while country like Germany chasing down the foreigner and beat them down, make them feel like third grade human being (maybe that is the way how they make themself feel best, what a civilized group of people!) and US occupies the Iraq, how can they turn around and dress up like a human right defender and "teach" china you should do this and that. You probably don't know, in Chinese value, people disgust double moral. Even China is not doing good at human right, but they don't buy your advise either.

2. Certainly there are deep misunderstandings about China and it's people, thanks for massive western media. For many people that never travel and see the other part of world, media is certainly the only window they see the world and build up their mind. From my experience, minority nations in China such like Tibet (if you don't know, China has many different minor nations, not just Han) gets priorities in school and extra benefits and discrimination had never crossed my mind when they were my classmates, I didn't know any difference between them or others. There is a long history about Tibet being part of China, why is western so exciting and passionate to separate it from China?? Would you like to give a piece of your country land to others? Although I do hope through this incident, Chinese government has to think about what more they can do for Tibetan people and how to best handle this issue.

3. Human rights and freedom has a limit, how much do you want? Again, I agree China has to improve more, but how worse is it at all? Is it like hell like what western media has told their people (especially those never see other part of the world, they would believe it so firmly)? The answer I guess is no. My parents and my sisters are in China, they live in a comfortable harmony. The untrue report from western media actually angers more normal chinese people, the dishonest media just help them to realize that the once admired western world is actually quite "evil" and people will open their eyes and the colorful ring about western's democratic disappears.

4. Why does western want so desparately to push China to think as they think, get the same value as they do. Maybe afterall, it is still a culture thing, and western thinks they are the best, everybody else thinks differently should be cleaned out. If everybody thinks the same, same culture, what a boring world that we would have!

5. At the end, self center, individual value, distance between human beings is important in western world's value. I miss so much the close distance between human beings, the harmony and good willing between human beings, everytime I visit my parents, the warm feeling of human touch overwhelm me and I want to say, please don't try to turn chinese people into the same value as western's just because the westerns don't know or even taste the wonderful feeling of human touch.

Done of my rant. Welcome critisize.

Irene

[LAVA 1.0 Content]

QUOTE (Irene_he @ Apr 10 2008, 03:13 PM)

...media is certainly the only window they see the world and build up their mind. ...

4. Why does western want so desparately to push China to think as they think, get the same value as they do....

Done of my rant. Welcome critisize.

Irene

A couple of thought crossed my mind as I read your post.

In Plato's republic he attributed to Socrates the belief that the arts (the media of his day) should be out-lawed because they feed a "shadow of reality" that people take as truth. I have to agree with his ideas there.

"4. Why does..." My personal theory on that question is .... (deleted because its even too out-rageous even for the LAVA Lounge)

Ben

[crelf]

QUOTE (neB @ Apr 10 2008, 03:50 PM)

My personal theory on that question is .... (deleted because its even too out-rageous even for the LAVA Lounge)

I can't wait to get you plied with beer at NI-Week!

[Irene_he]

QUOTE (neB @ Apr 10 2008, 03:50 PM)

"4. Why does..." My personal theory on that question is .... (deleted because its even too out-rageous even for the LAVA Lounge)

I would be interested to hear your theory if you don't mind, please send to my email.

Some chinese people get so offended that they setup an anti-cnn.com website, revealing all the liars that media reports with pictures. Some western media even used picture from a movie to tell a lie. Do they think all chinese are idiot or they actually think their country people are idiot?? But I guess they indeed do foolish quite a lot of people. :thumbdown:

Irene

[PaulG.]

QUOTE (Irene_he @ Apr 10 2008, 09:25 PM)

Some Chinese people get so offended that they setup an anti-cnn.com website ...

Irene

I thought it was only American conservatives that hated CNN their propaganda. But it makes sense. CNN (as well as most of the dominant media) hate American Republicans/conservatives/i.e. "The Rich". Chinese companies make a lot of money for "The Rich". Thus, by guilt by association CNN would hate all of China.

[crelf]

QUOTE (PaulG. @ Apr 11 2008, 01:12 PM)

I thought it was only American conservatives that hated CNN their propaganda.

People often tell me about something they heard on "the news", and then I have to ask them which network they heard it from so I can try to minimize the spin. Most networks do it, it's just a matter of which direction they spin

I get most of my news from the http://news.bbc.co.uk/' rel='nofollow' target="_blank">BBC...

[LAVA 1.0 Content]

QUOTE (crelf @ Apr 10 2008, 05:45 PM)

I can't wait to get you plied with beer at NI-Week!

We'll see about that. I have tried very hard not to get thrown across the bar knocking over tables on the way (again).

Re: Fair and Balanced news...

I listen to NPR (Never Fresh Air) on the way home and then sit and watch FOX News (never their prime time line-up unless I am stuck in a motel) to balance it out. I don't beleive either source but I try to perfom a transform to the "truth plane" based the common items listed in both.

I beleive it was Pilate who once asked "What is truth?". Makes you wonder how far we have come in 2000 years.

Irene,

I BELEIVE that sub-conciously (can a society have a sub-concious, without it being a conspiracy?) the west is threatened by China because;

1) There are a lot more people in China than anywhere else and there is no other group in the world that could beat China, finacially, or miltarily.

2) China has a unique history background and culture and therefore is different. "Differences" often scare those that don't appreciate the difference.

3) The Chinese society is not yet addicted to the "stuff" that place un-neccessary demands on western life styles. e.g. When did cars become clothing?

So although all of the hype against China is toughted as "good and morale" I BELEIVE the attacks are based on fear.

Is anyone other than me familar with DR. Seuss's "The Star Belly Sneaches" ?

Ben

[crelf]

QUOTE (neB @ Apr 11 2008, 02:40 PM)

We'll see about that. I have tried very hard not to get thrown across the bar knocking over tables on the way (again).

I don't know about your physical condition, but you'd have to be very short and out-of-shape, and I'd need to revoke my beliefs in non-violance for me to have any chance

QUOTE (neB @ Apr 11 2008, 02:40 PM)

I don't beleive either source but I try to perfom a transform to the "truth plane" based the common items listed in both.

Very well said Ben! :thumbup:

[Albert Geven]

Hi Ben

You sure advertise the classics again and not a lot has changed in 200 years except for LabVIEW ....

But I sure agree that fear is a bad guide to meet other people and I hope we will see that bad people cannot be recognised by color or nation.

So let all sports be sport, and not concentrate on money or war.

Irene, thanks for pointing me to this link from info-labview, and keep the chinese spirit strong.

QUOTE (neB @ Apr 11 2008, 01:40 PM)

I beleive it was Pilate who once asked "What is truth?". Makes you wonder how far we have come in 2000 years.

Irene,

I BELEIVE that sub-conciously (can a society have a sub-concious, without it being a conspiracy?) the west is threatened by China because;

1) There are a lot more people in China than anywhere else and there is no other group in the world that could beat China, finacially, or miltarily.

2) China has a unique history background and culture and therefore is different. "Differences" often scare those that don't appreciate the difference.

3) The Chinese society is not yet addicted to the "stuff" that place un-neccessary demands on western life styles. e.g. When did cars become clothing?

So although all of the hype against China is toughted as "good and morale" I BELEIVE the attacks are based on fear.

Is anyone other than me familar with DR. Seuss's "The Star Belly Sneaches" ?

Ben

[jdunham]

Hi Irene:

Thanks for starting a dialog. At the risk of embarrassing myself and making other people angry, I'll try to chip in. It gets diffiicult because I think you are mixing some of the issues between people and cultures on one hand and governments on the other. I will also present a 'Western' view point in a mostly positive light, but most people don't think our culture is 100% good, and we certainly don't think Chinese culture is bad at all.

QUOTE (Irene_he @ Apr 10 2008, 12:13 PM)

1. Western likes a lot to talk about human rights and especially like to criticise China for lack of that. I agree that China has room to improve on that. But on the other hand, while country like Germany chasing down the foreigner and beat them down, make them feel like third grade human being (maybe that is the way how they make themself feel best, what a civilized group of people!) and US occupies the Iraq, how can they turn around and dress up like a human right defender and "teach" china you should do this and that. You probably don't know, in Chinese value, people disgust double moral. Even China is not doing good at human right, but they don't buy your advise either.

Every government has ideals and standards which are difficult to live up to. A huge number of the people where I live (and everywhere in the US nowadays) oppose the Iraq occupation and are upset by the untruths that were told on the way into the conflict. But despite that, everyone here hopes that the Iraqi people will end up with less misery and suffering and more freedom and opportunity then they had before. Promising this is the only way our politicians can keep funding the war effort.

It does seem likely that Tibetans have better access to healthcare and basic necessities with Chinese administration. Of course we don't really know if that makes Tibetans want to be part of China. I have read that it is against the law for Tibetan people to support independence at all, so we're not going to find out how they feel unless they start rioting in the streets, or unless Tibetan people can escape and tell their stories in other countries...

Part of what you see as a double standard is Americans not wanting to see our own mistakes repeated. At one time, half of the states in our country no longer wanted to be in the USA and the horrible war that happened as a result was just the start of over 100 years of problems. Before and after that war, American pioneers wanted the land occupied by Native Americans and solved the problem with extreme brutality and ultimately a genocide. A lot of Americans are ashamed of this, and since we can't fix the past, we can try to prevent it in the future, even if it means we will be criticized for hypocrisy.

QUOTE (Irene_he @ Apr 10 2008, 12:13 PM)

2. Certainly there are deep misunderstandings about China and it's people, thanks for massive western media. For many people that never travel and see the other part of world, media is certainly the only window they see the world and build up their mind. From my experience, minority nations in China such like Tibet (if you don't know, China has many different minor nations, not just Han) gets priorities in school and extra benefits and discrimination had never crossed my mind when they were my classmates, I didn't know any difference between them or others. There is a long history about Tibet being part of China, why is western so exciting and passionate to separate it from China?? Would you like to give a piece of your country land to others? Although I do hope through this incident, Chinese government has to think about what more they can do for Tibetan people and how to best handle this issue.

One thing that is different between our country and some others is that every state, city, and village in the USA is filled with an overwhelming majority of people who are proud and happy to be US citizens and would not want to break away and be an independent state. We don't have exiles spread over the world seeking to change the government from afar. Is the same true for Tibet?

QUOTE (Irene_he @ Apr 10 2008, 12:13 PM)

Would you like to give a piece of your country land to others?

If China returned Tibet to the Tibetans, how would that be 'giving it to others'? Protesters are not asking them to give Tibet to anyone, but to let the people who live there determine their own form of government.

Kosovo just declared independence from Serbia. Other countries including the US encouraged this, not to harm the Serbian people or to insult their culture, but because the vast majority of Kosovars yearned to stop being Serbians. The Serbian government denounced and blamed the US, EU, and UN, but never seemed to acknowledge that their own behavior and oppression caused the situation. I think there is a lot of sympathy as well for Kurds, who would much rather form their own nation than be suppressed by their governmental 'owners' in Turkey, Iraq, and Iran. Whether governments get involved or not depend on money and politics (unfortunately), but Americans generally think that people should have a government that they choose. This very short Wikipedia definition sums up a core belief of many Americans, and I believe that includes many of the Chinese-Americans who are my friends and neighbors.

QUOTE (Irene_he @ Apr 10 2008, 12:13 PM)

3. Human rights and freedom has a limit, how much do you want? Again, I agree China has to improve more, but how worse is it at all? Is it like hell like what western media has told their people (especially those never see other part of the world, they would believe it so firmly)? The answer I guess is no. My parents and my sisters are in China, they live in a comfortable harmony. The untrue report from western media actually angers more normal chinese people, the dishonest media just help them to realize that the once admired western world is actually quite "evil" and people will open their eyes and the colorful ring about western's democratic disappears.

Some of the other postings were skeptical about western news organizations and I would agree. News companies need to make money, and stories about how everyone is happy and friendly don't sell newspapers. I think most Americans understand that Chinese people work hard and love their families and are patriotic for their country. At the same time, I'm also not sure what you are referring to. I'm sure that some media reporting is severely biased, but can you give some examples about Tibet? The media often reports what the Xinhua News agency releases, and a lot of it doesn't sound very nice.

There is certainly "evil" in the western world, or anywhere in the world. Anywhere there are people and money, there will be evil, and that includes China, the USA, Canada, Germany, Saudi Arabia.... Democracy doesn't appear to be able to solve all our problems, but do you think it's evil? Do you think places without democracy are less evil than places with it?

QUOTE (Irene_he @ Apr 10 2008, 12:13 PM)

4. Why does western want so desparately to push China to think as they think, get the same value as they do. Maybe afterall, it is still a culture thing, and western thinks they are the best, everybody else thinks differently should be cleaned out. If everybody thinks the same, same culture, what a boring world that we would have!

Well there is definitely some culture there. Western society and government has been dominated by Christianity for at least 1600 years, and going throughout the world and converting others is a core belief. A lot of Western people might agree with you that this is bad, and it was the driving force behind some profound evil in the past, but you asked for the reason.

I have to say that many more Chinese people come here and want to be citizens of the USA, and Americans are proud of that. I haven't heard about too many Americans who want to change countries and become citizens of Communist China. Some of our success in attracting immigrants is purely economic, but some people desire freedom, even if they get here and things aren't as free and easy as they expected.

QUOTE (Irene_he @ Apr 10 2008, 12:13 PM)

5. At the end, self center, individual value, distance between human beings is important in western world's value. I miss so much the close distance between human beings, the harmony and good willing between human beings, everytime I visit my parents, the warm feeling of human touch overwhelm me and I want to say, please don't try to turn chinese people into the same value as western's just because the westerns don't know or even taste the wonderful feeling of human touch.

I get those feelings around my family too. It might be a cliche, but I have to say that our cultures are more alike then they are different, especially between individual human beings. It's possible you found different experiences here and in Germany, and I'm sure it's hard to live so far from home. Like many Americans and just about all immigrants, I now live in a place thousands of miles away from where I grew up.

I don't think we want to turn Chinese people into Americans or Westerners. If I go to Shanghai, I don't want to see McDonalds and Starbucks and Nike every time I turn around (too late, probably). That's globalization, and governments on all sides (except Iran) seem to want to make it happen as quickly as possible, since there's good money in it for the elites. OK, I'm stopping there. Someone else can 'carry the torch' on that one.

I hope you aren't offended that I argued with each of your points. I think it is likely that we would agree on many things, both politically and personally (especially that LabVIEW is cool).

Jason

[Irene_he]

Thanks again for everyone that took their time to read my posts and cared about what I have to "scream" and open their mind to provide their thoughts and views. Ben/Albert, thank you for pointing out that maybe human kinds have not changed much for 2000 year, but I think they are indeed more "civilized" in the way that at least they give you a "reason" if they want to beat you.

Jason: thank you for your detailed reply to every point that I made and provided your "western" view. I am not going to take more LAVA space to discuss in details of each points here. Two things that I want to say is, I believe what you said that American people felt bad for what they had done in Iraq and felt ashame, maybe sorry, but is that enough to cover up the damages and keep the right to "try out" new things of this kind? Second, Tibet Spiritual leader Dalai Lama does not claim independancy and he supports Beijing Olympic, why should westerns be more excited to separate Tibet? I don't think there is oil in Tibet.

By the way, I was curious to see what CNN has to say this morning, and I found this report (is it true?). If it is a true report, I do think Americans are indeed more "intelligent".

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/13/us.olympics.ap/index.html

Anyway, let's come out of this politic/Tibet/Olympic field, back to the reality world. I am glad that I get a lot of smiles at the place/country where I live and I smile them all the way back. All my Canadian and American friends are still my good friends.

Let's keep up doing a good job at LabVIEW world.

Irene

[shoneill]

QUOTE (Irene_he @ Apr 13 2008, 06:04 PM)

I am not going to take more LAVA space to discuss in details of each points here.

But I'll say just a couple of short things.

1) Democracy, communism or whatever has nothing to do with evil. This mistake is made from all sides. A political system cannot be inherently good or evil. It may be fair or unfair, but anything else is stretching it a bit far. It's the PEOPLE implementing the systems that are the problem. Communism is a pretty cool idea, it's just very hard to actually implement. Not that democracy has it much easier. I don't think the American system (Winner takes all) is particularly good. Have a look at how things are done in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Switzerland' rel='nofollow' target="_blank">Switzerland. In Switzerland, if the democrats got 40% of the votes, they'd be in 40% of the governmental positions. That way the government REALLY represents what the people want. It's the best system I've encountered.

2) How many human rights violations have China comitted (I think we're pretty agreed that violations have taken place) per citizen compared to America. I think many might be surprised at the answer.

3) Finally, I think the whole "boycott China" thing is ridiculous. All countries do things other countries don't like (Italy may well vote in Berlusconi today!). That's life. Boycotting them for it generally doesn't solve anything, especially when they're big enough to survive without you anyway. A lot of the calls for boycott may well be down to fear of the unknown and general hypocrisy.

That's all from me.

Shane.

[LAVA 1.0 Content]

QUOTE (shoneill @ Apr 13 2008, 03:02 PM)

But I'll say just a couple of short things.

1) Democracy, communism or whatever has nothing to do with evil. ... It's the PEOPLE implementing the systems that are the problem....

Shane.

:thumbup:

You nailed it Shane!

Now if you allow me to jump to the end of the game and summarize...

Each of us can only control ourselves so if we really care about making the world better, concentrate on making our individual contributions the best we can and if someone else screws up, forgive them.

Ben