Grampa_of_Oliva_n_Eden Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Hi all, I am a relative newbie here on this forum so please excuse me if this is posted in the wrong forum etc. As some of you already know, I have been very active on the NI forum and I have been trying to nurture the idea of an Official Bug List for LV. Before I proceed, let me say that the list on the NI site is not intended to replace the LAVA Bug List. It should complement it. After about 7-8 months of this list and "back-room" discusions by the LabVIEW Champions, the list is our initial entry into forcing the BUg List into the public. I would like to invite everyone to please voice their opinion on the Bug List either here in this thread or in this thread http://forums.ni.com/ni/board/message?boar...d=800&jump=true on the NI Dev-Exchange. Your thoughts, opinions and support of the Bug List are very important and I invite you all to share your thoughts. Ben BTW: Yes, what we have done thus far is crude, but with your help, it can get better. Quote Link to comment
pallen Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Thanks very much for your work on this Ben. As a new user to LV, I'm always running into (and hopefully overcoming) obstacles. It really makes things much easier when you know a problem isn't one caused by your own code. Quote Link to comment
WMassey Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 I read through the discussion over on the NI Dev-Exchange about this and it left me wondering why not have just one ever-growing topic (sort of like this one for Darren's weekly nugget) that, for every confirmed bug, consisted solely of a brief synopsis and a link to the discussion of the bug (be it on LAVA or NI). Then there would be one place people could go to see if something had been reported or not. The trick would be to keep the bug list/topic free of discussion (bug-specific discussions would need to be reserved to the bug-specific threads, whether they be on LAVA or NI). To be sure that the bug list did not get polluted with noise would probably mean that it would need to be moderated like the FAQs are here on LAVA. I understand that moderator privilege of the NI forums is not something NI wants to let non-NI people do and, in the case of a bug list, I'm not sure I'd want an NI person doing it either. Perhaps it could be setup here on LAVA? A simple pointer in the NI forums to a LAVA bug list would suffice for the people looking for reports over there. Quote Link to comment
Grampa_of_Oliva_n_Eden Posted March 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 ... left me wondering why not have just one ever-growing topic ... Good point Warren! From where we stand today, that is probably one of the next changes we implement. I'll try to bring that up at the meeting. :gathering: Historically speaking, the Bug List on the NI Forum was implemented using the medium that was at hand, "The Exchange". But now that it recognized and tracked by support and ack'd with CAR's we can still make it better. A single searchable list as you mentioned, would be a nice improvement. Now regarding the editing of a single list to purge the false alarms. I will check with Molly from NI who runs the Exchange, to see if what you proposed is possible. What I had understood previously was that NI did let you edit posting because they had a mirror that complicated edits/syn's...whatever. I still think a moderator can edit posts over there so perhaps the appropriate product support engineers can be granted rights to delete bad entries. The reason I am dwelling on the NI version and not supporting the LAVA version is I feel it is prudent to move slowly with this project. NI is supporting the project as is and it is starting to work. I think is was Ronald Reagan that said "You do not change horses in mid-stream." I really think we are in the middle of it at the moment. Besides, as you mentioned, the links do not all have to point to the NI Exchange. The official list would only be an index. The content can be elsewhere. In the long run the NI Bug List will bring in more readers to LVA as more links in the NI List point at LAVA. Hold it, I just had a thought! May be I should learn to set up a LAVA poll about a friendly little competition between the various forums. The most number of bugs reported and confirmed. We could break it down by LV version, quarter, year ... What do you think? Am I getting out of control with this idea? Maybe its time to do something else... Ben Quote Link to comment
WMassey Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 May be I should learn to set up a LAVA poll about a friendly little competition between the various forums. The most number of bugs reported and confirmed. We could break it down by LV version, quarter, year ... Ben I think of polls as something used for measuring opinions. When you say "... reported and confirmed ... break it down by LV version, quarter, year ..." you are talking about documented facts and you don't use polls to measure those, just statistics (depending on what you want the result to say).What do you think? Am I getting out of control with this idea? Maybe its time to do something else... Yes, it might indeed be time for a break... (And as a side note to Michael, Hey the indent worked! First chance I got to try it. Thanks! :thumbup: ) Quote Link to comment
Yair Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 I think is was Ronald Reagan that said "You do not change horses in mid-stream."Ben No Ben! That was in "Wag the dog"! :laugh: I doubt NI will delete "bad" entries, because once they're there they can be linked to from other places. In any case, a forum thread can be used for this, but it is not a truly appropriate tool. As Jim pointed out, there are real bug tracking tools (which NI probably uses) and some sort of read access to a version of NI's DB would be interesting. That would truly allow searching for bugs, but I don't see it happening. Quote Link to comment
Grampa_of_Oliva_n_Eden Posted March 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 ...and some sort of read access to a version of NI's DB would be interesting. That would truly allow searching for bugs, but I don't see it happening. Nor do I (although the Champions will be sounding this theme repeatedly). Ben Quote Link to comment
Jim Kring Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 LAVA already has a bug list. Look at the LabVIEW 8.0 Buglist forum -- my bug postings have a topic description that gives the status (e.g. "Status: Fixed in 8.0.1") that is easily seen from the main topics listing. If you are a Premium LAVA Member, you can edit your postings. This allows you to edit the posting content (and description) to reflect bug status and CAR information, when it becomes available. Michael Aivaliotis (or benevolent LAVA Champion) has gone through a lot of effort to set up some great tools for us and he is very responsive to requests for features and improvements. Basically, in my opinion, it is a lot easier to get things done here at LAVA than on the NI forums. And, the signal to noise is a lot better too. Personally, my interest is in getting things done that are important to me, not necessarily in helping NI provide better support for its customers. I find that the LAVA forums are a better environment, to that end, and that is where I would rather focus my time and energy. Bottom line, the NI forums bug list is a great idea, but I would rather spend my time championing the LAVA bugs forums (or other tracking tools). And, in the end, this might actually motivate NI more to implement better tools for thier customers. If we do it at LAVA, NI will be forced to copy us (and probably do it better than us). But, if we do it on the NI forums, then I feel that NI will be happy to let us do thier job for them. :2cents: Quote Link to comment
jhoskins Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Well said jim I agree whole heartedly. I monitor both forums, I like the way LAVA does things over NI. It does seem that both forums could come up with some sort of compromise. Maybe put a link on the ni forum with a link to the buglist here. Quote Link to comment
Jim Kring Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 It does seem that both forums could come up with some sort of compromise. Maybe put a link on the ni forum with a link to the buglist here. I have been doing that -- putting links to the LAVA bug postings in the NI forums bug list. In fact, I also point the NI support engineers to my LAVA bug postings when I use NI's email support system. Quote Link to comment
Grampa_of_Oliva_n_Eden Posted March 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Well said jim I agree whole heartedly. I monitor both forums, I like the way LAVA does things over NI. It does seem that both forums could come up with some sort of compromise. Maybe put a link on the ni forum with a link to the buglist here. Keep them comments coming! What is in place now definately needs improvement. Not being able to search it easily if a big problem. As recently as this morning I was telling someone they were looking at a previously reported bug, but lacking an easy way to search the bug list, I did not even attempt to find the original posting of the bug and any possible work-arounds. The ability to update the bug listing is another big short coming. The bug I was looking at this AM had been fixed in LV 8 but that only became apparent when it worked for those who tried the example in LV8 and did not for the LV 7.1 people. For that reason alone, I am concidering changing my practices to first post the bug here on LAVA and then point at it from the NI side. But BOY does that seem like a pain! I believe I am the same page as far as doing NI's work. Durring the initial couple of months of the Bug List, I was calling NI personally to log every bug! When I finally heard that NI would be monitoring the bug thread, I felt the same way I did when my son was toilet trained! FINALLY! Again thank you for sharing your thoughts and tolerating my questions! Ben Quote Link to comment
Jim Kring Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Ben: You probably already know this, but it is worth highlighting: The LAVA Bug Lists are searchable, and you can scope your search to specific forums and subforums. Just use the forum Search page. Quote Link to comment
Yair Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 If we do it at LAVA, NI will be forced to copy us Feel another case of Clear Whitespace coming? Quote Link to comment
Grampa_of_Oliva_n_Eden Posted March 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Feel another case of Clear Whitespace coming? You would not know of a link that would help me understand this statement, would you? Ben Quote Link to comment
Yair Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 You would not know of a link that would help me understand this statement, would you?Ben If I remember correctly, NI's Clear Whitespace VI came after the OpenG Clear Whitespace VI and is almost identical. I'm sure Jim could verify this (assuming I remember correctly). Quote Link to comment
Jim Kring Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 If I remember correctly, NI's Clear Whitespace VI came after the OpenG Clear Whitespace VI and is almost identical. I'm sure Jim could verify this (assuming I remember correctly). Yes, you could say that NI's Trim Whitespace VI represents the most sincere form of flattery However, my statement about NI copying LAVA (or OpenG for that matter) is not to poke fun at NI. If NI is smart, they should copy (or support) things that work. No sense re-inventing the wheel. However, I wish sometimes that NI would give more support to community efforts outside of ni.com, but that is their prerogative. I should state that NI has been very supportive of local user group meetings in the San Francisco Bay Area for many many years and that is one of the reasons that the LabVIEW community is so strong in this region. Quote Link to comment
Yair Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 NI's Trim Whitespace VI I knew something didn't sound right. Quote Link to comment
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