Justin Goeres Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 As hinted at in this thread and this thread, I finally upgraded my old work machine. I'm pleased, therefore, to announce the arrival of my shiny new 17" MacBook Pro. The plan going forward is to do my development under Windows via VMWare Fusion, but to have the door open for forays into the Mac world as opportunities present themselves. I'm also a natural-born Mac user from way back and I've missed my old Power Mac G4 ever since it bit the dust a couple years ago, so it's good to be Back Home. Of course, the old Dell will hang around in the unpleasant event that I run into hardware that won't talk to VMWare. But aside from that, the plan is All Mac, All The Time. Screenshot proof. I still haven't upgraded my Windows LabVIEW to 8.5.1; I assume that's the difference between the Getting Started windows. Quote Link to comment
Omar Mussa Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 QUOTE (Justin Goeres @ Jun 23 2008, 01:24 PM) I'm pleased, therefore, to announce the arrival of my shiny new 17" MacBook Pro. The plan going forward is to do my development under Windows via VMWare Fusion, but to have the door open for forays into the Mac world as opportunities present themselves. I'm also a natural-born Mac user from way back and I've missed my old Power Mac G4 ever since it bit the dust a couple years ago, so it's good to be Back Home. :thumbup: Is there a reason you chose VMWare Fusion over Parallels? Quote Link to comment
Jim Kring Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Congrat's! We're evaluating switching JKI engineers to the 17" MacBook Pro too. Which screen (resolution, glossy/non-glossy, etc?) did you end up getting? Which processor? How much RAM? I've very curious how it works for you. Quote Link to comment
Justin Goeres Posted June 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 QUOTE (Omar Mussa @ Jun 23 2008, 01:02 PM) Is there a reason you chose VMWare Fusion over Parallels? I've heard (and I stress that I have no direct evidence for this) that Fusion's USB bridging system is better (i.e. it's more stable and works with a wider variety of hardware). In an informal test a year ago, I played with a friend's MacBook Pro and a beta of Parallels for about a month (back before either Parallels or Fusion had their rootless ("Unity") modes). At the time, the virtualization in Parallels was fine but the USB side of things was really unstable. It would be unfair, however, to judge Parallels based on that now. The real reason I picked Fusion was because NI's virtualization demo at NIWeek last year used Fusion. That's about it. Do you have any thoughts on the matter? For what it's worth, imaging my old laptop into VMWare using the VMWare Converter was a minor nightmare for a couple of reasons that I would be glad to discuss privately (they're a little hard to explain), but the bottom line is that eventually everything sorted itself out and my virtual machine is a duplicate of my old Dell, which is a big bonus continuity-wise. The only major problem right now is that the VM Windows doesn't want to talk to the samba server on my network, which is going to make generating invoices impossible until it's fixed. QUOTE (Jim Kring @ Jun 23 2008, 01:04 PM) Congrat's! We're evaluating switching JKI engineers to the 17" MacBook Pro too. Which screen (resolution, glossy/non-glossy, etc?) did you end up getting? Which processor? How much RAM? I bought mine at a Apple Retail Store in Oregon (to save on tax). That has the slightly irritating effect of reducing the number of options, because not all build-to-order configurations are offered in the stores. Essential details: 2.6 GHz CPU (would've gotten 2.5 GHz, but it was tied to screen size) 200GB/7200rpm hard drive (would've gotten the standard 250/5400 but it was tied to screen size) 2 GB RAM (but a 4 GB upgrade is in the mail; I just didn't want to pay Apple's extortionate price for it) Hi-res screen (1920x1200) Non-glossy (matte) screen finish CPU The difference in benchmarks between 2.5 GHz and 2.6 GHz is basically linear (only 4%), but the difference in price is closer to 10%. So the extra 100 MHz struck me as not very good bang-for-buck. But being forced to get the fastest laptop available isn't the worst thing I've ever faced . Hard Drive Basically the same argument as the CPU. The 7200 drive is measurably faster (something like 10%) depending on the application. But since I plan to run Windows & Mac OS X next to each other a lot, I would've wanted the extra 50 GB of disk space (in the standard 250 GB drive). But at the Apple Store, if you want the fancy screen, you have to get the fancy (but smaller) hard drive. This, too, is not the end of the world, as the 7200rpm drive is faster and 200 GB total space will probably be enough for me for a while. Screen For the screen size, it was Michael's comment about screen resolution in the linked thread above that convinced me to get the 17" Hi-Res. As for screen finish, I compared several machines in the store and the decision was about 55%/45% in favor of the matte screen. I work fairly frequently under harsh fluorescent (cleanroom) lights, and I expect the matte finish to help with that. Also, the lights in Apple Stores are surprisingly dim, so it's hard to really see much difference between the screens. But overall (and after asking a half-dozen Apple Store employees what their personal machines are) it was apparent to me that either screen would probably be fine for software development. My basic advice re: screen finish is that unless you've already deluded yourself into believing you absolutely need a specific kind, you should go to an Apple Store and just compare a whole bunch of them and then go for the one that feels better, even if you can't explain it . Quote Link to comment
Jim Kring Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Thanks for all the info, Justin. I did look up some information about screens and found what I thought to be a good analysis here. The thing that I took away from the glossy/matte debate is the glossy is brighter under a variety of lighting conditions but matte has more accurate color and is better suited for graphics professionals. Quote Link to comment
Justin Goeres Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (Jim Kring @ Jun 23 2008, 02:21 PM) but matte has more accurate color and is better suited for graphics professionals. Haven't read the link you posted yet, but one of the Apple Store employees who claimed to be a graphic designer (although who knows what that means -- he's working in an Apple Store, after all ) told me the exact opposite of that. He likes his glossy screen because he thinks it has better color reproduction than the matte. EDIT: OK, I read the link. I would say that I went through almost the exact same comparison the other blogger did, but I just came to a different conclusion. The one difference I would note is that the lighting in the Apple Store I was in was most assuredly not all that bright. For me, I actually like the fact that as I look at my machine I can barely even see the covering on the screen. With the glossy, there was always some reflection on it from somewhere. But again, the decision was maybe 55/45 for me, and I actually changed my mind twice while I was looking. I think people make a bigger deal out of the screen differences than they should. Both screens are really very good, and at the end of the day it's just personal preference. Quote Link to comment
Val Brown Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (Justin Goeres @ Jun 23 2008, 02:46 PM) I've heard (and I stress that I have no direct evidence for this) that Fusion's USB bridging system is better (i.e. it's more stable and works with a wider variety of hardware).In an informal test a year ago, I played with a friend's MacBook Pro and a beta of Parallels for about a month (back before either Parallels or Fusion had their rootless ("Unity") modes). At the time, the virtualization in Parallels was fine but the USB side of things was really unstable. It would be unfair, however, to judge Parallels based on that now. Precisely right about the USB support. I originally used Parallels on my 15" MBP and all was well EXCEPT for USB. It was, quite simply, impossible. I ended up returning to the Windows world reluctantly, with a Vista Premium system and I only did that because Fusion (at that time) did not support multimonitor mode under virtualization. Now with the current Beta, multimonitor mode works rather well and the USB support is useable. I have submitted several CARs (well their equivalent) re: the remaining USB issues and I understand that the next release will include their fixes. The remaining issues that I've found re: USB concern how it interacts with Unity View (Fusion's form of what Parallels calls Coherence) when dynamically plugging and unplugging a USB device. This is what I understand the next release will fix. Keep the settings so as to not Automatically Connect the device and there is no problem. So far so good with Fusion but I too am considering an update to the 17" MBP. Quote Link to comment
ChrisClark Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Herez what USB things we hooked to a MacBook (not pro) running XP under bootcamp: Atmel AVRISPmkII in-system programmer Ember USBLink programmer some custom zigbee radio on a USB stick, maybe SiLabs (?) and an Ember Insight adapter via ethernet Everything worked first time with LabVIEW using SystemExec and VISA and is deployed overseas. This was the test I have been waiting for - what happens with resources. I figure I can go with Bootcamp in those cases there is some weirdness with Fusion. I have a friend that says ctrl drag copy does not map in Fusion. For development I don't usually connect my laptop to that many resources, VISA and TCP goes a long way. I am now waiting for the next rev of MacBook Pros to come out and after that I will never buy a PC for myself again. I hope the next rev of 15" will have a higher resolution, the 17" seems like a lot to lug. Whoa, I assumed I could run XP (Fusion or Bootcamp) with two monitors, better check that. I'm watching the Macrumors.com buyers guide for next rev news. And it seems like XP should be good for the next couple of years. Quote Link to comment
Justin Goeres Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (ChrisClark @ Jun 23 2008, 05:03 PM) Whoa, I assumed I could run XP (Fusion or Bootcamp) with two monitors, better check that. I'm watching the Macrumors.com buyers guide for next rev news. And it seems like XP should be good for the next couple of years. I haven't tried it fullscreen with both my monitors yet (Fusion was suspended when I connected the monitor), but I have discovered that you can run it fullscreen on a single monitor and still get to the second monitor (which is still living in Mac-OS-X-world) by just slinging the mouse over there and doing your thing. This will become an issue if I'm running fullscreen and need to move VI windows over to the second monitor, but my hope is that I'll be able to work mostly in Unity mode. At some point I'll also move to the newer Fusion beta. I'm glad to hear other people have also made the transition. This is really an exciting time . QUOTE (Jim Kring @ Jun 23 2008, 02:21 PM) The thing that I took away from the glossy/matte debate is the glossy is brighter under a variety of lighting conditions but matte has more accurate color and is better suited for graphics professionals. One more note on this: I'm not entirely convinced that's true. I think that the glossy might seem brighter just because the image is slightly crisper, but when I forced myself to squint at them in the store (so all the subjects were blurry ) I came away suspicious that the perceived brightness difference might be an optical illusion. Another thing to note is that, trust me, both screens are more than bright enough. Mine (matte) hurts my eyes, even from 2-3 feet away, on 100% brightness. I'm finding that I generally run it at 75-80%. Quote Link to comment
Chris Davis Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (Jim Kring @ Jun 23 2008, 04:04 PM) Congrat's! We're evaluating switching JKI engineers to the 17" MacBook Pro too. Perhaps it will help with http://forums.jkisoft.com/index.php?showtopic=674' rel='nofollow' target="_blank">this problem too... BTW, Justin, do you have the mac version of 8.5 and windows version of 8.5 running on your new MacBook Pro? Is the volume licensing agreement still such that you have to purchase both copies separately? Quote Link to comment
Jim Kring Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (Chris Davis @ Jun 23 2008, 07:43 PM) Perhaps it will help with http://forums.jkisoft.com/index.php?showtopic=674' rel='nofollow' target="_blank">this problem too... I'm sure it will Quote Link to comment
Justin Goeres Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (Chris Davis @ Jun 23 2008, 06:43 PM) BTW, Justin, do you have the mac version of 8.5 and windows version of 8.5 running on your new MacBook Pro? Is the volume licensing agreement still such that you have to purchase both copies separately? Yes, I have both versions. That's what you see in the screenshot above. I haven't had a chance to really exercise either installation yet, but obviously that will come soon enough. My licensing arrangement is such that I did not have to pay for a whole separate copy of Mac LabVIEW. If you think you need a Mac LabVIEW license or need a set of install disks, I would start by contacting your local field sales person and explaining your use case to them. QUOTE (Jim Kring @ Jun 23 2008, 06:54 PM) I'm sure it will It damb well better . Quote Link to comment
boone_93 Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 As far as matte vs. glossy, I can't see how anyone that has used both in an office can consider glossy. I used one for a short time and I had horrible reflection from the flourescent lights. Maybe some better screens have coatings to help this but I was really surprised at the difference between the glossy and the matte screen on my regular laptop. Now I have heard that the glossy can perform better in outside environments which can be nice for field service people so I guess you have to weigh that importance. As for resolution, don't you guys find it a little hard to see and works with items on the screen with those high res 1920x1200 screens, especially with LabVIEW since everything is pixel based and you can't enlarge the environment. Maybe I'm getting a little old (35 and counting) Quote Link to comment
Justin Goeres Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (boone_93 @ Jun 24 2008, 05:06 AM) As for resolution, don't you guys find it a little hard to see and works with items on the screen with those high res 1920x1200 screens, especially with LabVIEW since everything is pixel based and you can't enlarge the environment. Maybe I'm getting a little old (35 and counting) Sometimes I do, yeah. I may end up running mine at a lower resolution when possible, but I needed the hi-res screen because it's the only Mac that will accommodate a 1280x1024 window (the bounds of most of my deployment machines). There are several Windows machines with better resolution options than Apple offers, but then again they're not Macintoshes . I hold out hope that someday NI will give us some ability to enlarge the workspace in LabVIEW. Remember that LabVIEW debuted when screens were in the 640x480 range, making common screens today six to eight times larger . It's partially offset by the physical growth in our monitors, but the fact is that the icons are getting smaller and we're getting older, and that's starting to be a problem. Maybe NI's engineers are all just too young . (And after I get a zoomable editing environment, I want larger VI icons, too, with 24-bits of color and an 8-bit alpha channel. I can dream.) Quote Link to comment
boone_93 Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (Justin Goeres @ Jun 24 2008, 09:25 AM) Sometimes I do, yeah. I may end up running mine at a lower resolution when possible, but I needed the hi-res screen because it's the only Mac that will accommodate a 1280x1024 window (the bounds of most of my deployment machines). There are several Windows machines with better resolution options than Apple offers, but then again they're not Macintoshes . Doesn't the 1680x1050 screen give you enough room for the 1280x1024 window? Also, I agree that you can run at a lower resolution but flatscreens always look there best when run at their native resolution, one of the few drawbacks compared to CRTs that could run any resolution and look good. Maybe this is a moot point if you have the laptop hooked up to an external monitor most of the time like I do (although that is tougher with MACs because of their lack of a docking connection, one of my pet peeves against them). I think their Mac Pros could be more appealing if Apple would be willing to concede to offering a setup on their laptop that caters to the business and Windows community better, like keyboard layout, number keypad on 17" models, more USB ports, built card readers, and some extra shortcut buttons that are available on most Win PCs. It always seems that I want to like Apple more than I ever do because of things like that. Quote Link to comment
Justin Goeres Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (boone_93 @ Jun 24 2008, 07:16 AM) Doesn't the 1680x1050 screen give you enough room for the 1280x1024 window? Also, I agree that you can run at a lower resolution but flatscreens always look there best when run at their native resolution, one of the few drawbacks compared to CRTs that could run any resolution and look good. Once you include the menu bar, 1050 is barely big enough. But yes, technically it's just enough. Michael made a point in another thread about it being nice to have your laptop be capable of the same resolution as your external monitor, so that played into my decision, as well. QUOTE Maybe this is a moot point if you have the laptop hooked up to an external monitor most of the time like I do (although that is tougher with MACs because of their lack of a docking connection, one of my pet peeves against them). I think their Mac Pros could be more appealing if Apple would be willing to concede to offering a setup on their laptop that caters to the business and Windows community better, like keyboard layout, number keypad on 17" models, more USB ports, built card readers, and some extra shortcut buttons that are available on most Win PCs. It always seems that I want to like Apple more than I ever do because of things like that. I was just talking to Steve Jobs the other day (he and I are close personal friends ) and he said he doesn't care what Windows users think . I understand what you're saying about the little missing bits, but I've never been happy with their implementation on Windows, either. My old Dell has a numeric keypad integrated into the built-in keyboard, but it sucks because the rows are all offset from each other and it's not in a natural place anyway. And I've never used the card reader on it, in spite of the fact that I have several gadgets that use cards. I just plug the gadgets in directly. That having been said, if you're really used to working with those things I can see where giving them up would be a hassle. There are http://www.bookendzdocks.com/Docking_Stations-Docking_Station_for_17_MacBook_Pro.html' rel='nofollow' target="_blank">docks available for MacBook Pros, although I'll be the first to admit they're a bit clunky. That owes to the fact that Apple puts all their ports on the side of the machine (which means you can see them and plug/unplug stuff without climbing to the back of the machine). I have a friend who docks his machine in one of them, and he's pretty happy with it. Quote Link to comment
Yair Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (Justin Goeres @ Jun 24 2008, 05:25 PM) (And after I get a zoomable editing environment, I want larger VI icons, too, with 24-bits of color and an 8-bit alpha channel. I can dream.) I want a 16 bit alpha channel on VI icons, just for the hell of it. If I can see 16M colors, I can also see 65K shades of transparency . QUOTE (Justin Goeres @ Jun 23 2008, 11:24 PM) I still haven't upgraded my Windows LabVIEW to 8.5.1; I assume that's the difference between the Getting Started windows. The difference is caused by the OS. If memory serves, Mac and Linux have the same GSW and there's another one for RT. Quote Link to comment
boone_93 Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (Justin Goeres @ Jun 24 2008, 11:30 AM) Once you include the menu bar, 1050 is barely big enough. But yes, technically it's just enough. Michael made a point in another thread about it being nice to have your laptop be capable of the same resolution as your external monitor, so that played into my decision, as well. I agree that can be convenient. QUOTE I understand what you're saying about the little missing bits, but I've never been happy with their implementation on Windows, either. My old Dell has a numeric keypad integrated into the built-in keyboard, but it sucks because the rows are all offset from each other and it's not in a natural place anyway. And I've never used the card reader on it, in spite of the fact that I have several gadgets that use cards. I just plug the gadgets in directly. That having been said, if you're really used to working with those things I can see where giving them up would be a hassle. The number keypad on 17" Win PCs are a separate section to the right, not integrated into main keyboard, it can be pretty handy. QUOTE There are http://www.bookendzdocks.com/Docking_Stations-Docking_Station_for_17_MacBook_Pro.html' rel='nofollow' target="_blank">docks available for MacBook Pros, although I'll be the first to admit they're a bit clunky. That owes to the fact that Apple puts all their ports on the side of the machine (which means you can see them and plug/unplug stuff without climbing to the back of the machine). I have a friend who docks his machine in one of them, and he's pretty happy with it. Those look pretty cool, at least they provide a workable option. Quote Link to comment
nhollenback Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Still lovin my 15" MBP (2.2 with 80G) running Fusion. Definitely the matte. Conveniently splashed a bit of Diet Coke on my old laptop in Oct. 07 and decided to make the move. Was an easy transition. Psst... don't tell anyone, but I hear a few NI guys are running around with MBPs Quote Link to comment
Jim Kring Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (Justin Goeres @ Jun 24 2008, 09:30 AM) There are docks available for MacBook Pros, although I'll be the first to admit they're a bit clunky. That owes to the fact that Apple puts all their ports on the side of the machine (which means you can see them and plug/unplug stuff without climbing to the back of the machine). I have a friend who docks his machine in one of them, and he's pretty happy with it. $319.95? What, do they think Mac users (want you to think they) are made of money? [insert Mac-owners-are-snobs joke, here] But seriously, now that all the cool LAVA people are getting Macs (damn, I don't have one yet), do you think we can start a meme (that's for you Justin) that LAVA forum members use Macs and NI forums members use PCs? Hi, I'm a LAVA member... And, I'm a NI forums member... QUOTE (nhollenback @ Jun 24 2008, 11:56 AM) Psst... don't tell anyone, but I hear a few NI guys are running around with MBPs Ya, and they hang out in LAVA, too. Right, AQ? Quote Link to comment
Ton Plomp Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 So you are all transtitioning to a platform that isn't backwards compatible? (OS flame war awaiting) And you really want to wear blue shoes? Ton Quote Link to comment
nhollenback Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (tcplomp @ Jun 24 2008, 01:39 PM) And you really want to wear blue shoes? Oh I neglected to mention my MBP came in chartreuse - blends quite well with my blue Nike :thumbup: Quote Link to comment
Ton Plomp Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (nhollenback @ Jun 24 2008, 09:57 PM) ...chartreuse... You know there are just 16 colours, right? The 32^22^32-16 are just marketing mumbo jumbo? Ton Quote Link to comment
Jim Kring Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE (tcplomp @ Jun 24 2008, 12:39 PM) So you are all transtitioning to a platform that isn't backwards compatible? (OS flame war awaiting)And you really want to wear blue shoes? Ton I'll have you know that Jeff K. and I (and my college buddy, Keith) wear the same model (991) of gray New Balance sneakers. Actually, I have two pairs in gray and one pair in blue. I found this out at NIWeek last year, when I saw Jeff at the Samuel Majors meet and greet. You can just make out my blue sneakers in the photo of me and Samuel. And, when I'm not wearing my sneakers, you'll most likely find me wearing flip flops. There have even been days when all the JKI engineers (all four of us) show up to our team meeting wearing khaki shorts, flip flops, and a LabVIEW/NIWeek t-shirt. I guess the point is (although, I didn't really start this reply to make a point), if you're going to be assimilated, make sure you pick the right hive And, if you can't find one, start one. Ha! I just found the best photo of all: I'm even way cooler than I thought I was. :thumbup: Quote Link to comment
Justin Goeres Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 QUOTE ...same model (991) of gray New Balance sneakers...Ha! I just found the best photo of all: I'm even way cooler than I thought I was. :thumbup: Wikipedia says those are New Balance 992s. So while you may be cooler than you thought you were, you must always remember that Steve Jobs is still slightly cooler than you. QUOTE (nhollenback @ Jun 24 2008, 11:57 AM) Oh I neglected to mention my MBP came in chartreuse - blends quite well with my blue Nike :thumbup: Which shade? ImageMagick knows 5 different ones . QUOTE (tcplomp @ Jun 24 2008, 11:39 AM) So you are all transtitioning to a platform that isn't backwards compatible? (OS flame war awaiting) While deftly avoiding the bait :ninja:, I would point out that being able to import my entire previous Windows laptop into a virtual machine strikes me as the ultimate in the backward compatibility that means the most to me :thumbup:. Quote Link to comment
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