New poll on The Paper Chase

[Tom Bress]

There is a new poll on my blog: What is the optimum time period for recertification? Stop by and cast your vote.

The first poll is now closed. The question was "Is certification a good thing for the LabVIEW community?" There were 28 responses, with 89% saying "Yes" and 11% saying "No". So the majority thinks it is a good thing, but the minority negative opinion is sizable.

[TobyD]

I don't agree that certification should expire. I think a better system is to have the certification linked to a LabVIEW version number. Perhaps with each major release (7.x, 8.x, 9.x, etc) NI could revise the test and come up with a new certification. This would encourage people to re-certify, but they could still claim CLD in LV 8.x 10 years from now (for what it would be worth).

-Toby

[Karissap]

Just because you know how to do something now doesn't mean you'll remember how to do it in 10 years if you haven't been using it.

I have my pilot's licence and have to do a flight review every two years to keep it current but an extra endorsement or rating counts as a review.

A similar thing could be done for LV Certification, you could get some kind of endorsment by doing courses in NI hardware or LV software toolboxes, new features etc (GOOP would be nice) through NI or approved 3rd pary courses, and this could count as re-certification of LV status.

[TobyD]

QUOTE (Karissap @ Aug 19 2008, 05:57 PM)

Just because you know how to do something now doesn't mean you'll remember how to do it in 10 years if you haven't been using it.

I have my pilot's licence and have to do a flight review every two years to keep it current but an extra endorsement or rating counts as a review.

I like the idea of extra training counting as a re-cert. This would require that NI continually come up with new and interesting classes to offer though. However, I think there are some innate differences between a software certification and a pilots license. When flying a plane I am sure you have to be up to date on all the FAA regulations, airport/tower procedures, etc. Peoples lives and safety depend on these rules. If I write ugly code, it is not usually going to physically harm anything (not that I would ever write ugly code ).

That said, my brother and his wife are both registered nurses. Neither of them has worked as a nurse for the last 3 years, but they continue to pay a small fee each year to keep their RN licenses active in case they ever want to get back into nursing. There is no recertification required at all. They could come back after 15 years (and they both know people who have) and start right up, notwithstanding the advances in medical technology, etc. (There is not really a point to this paragraph, just thought it was interesting).

[Tom Bress]

QUOTE (TobyD @ Aug 20 2008, 12:14 PM)

That said, my brother and his wife are both registered nurses. Neither of them has worked as a nurse for the last 3 years, but they continue to pay a small fee each year to keep their RN licenses active in case they ever want to get back into nursing. There is no recertification required at all. They could come back after 15 years (and they both know people who have) and start right up, notwithstanding the advances in medical technology, etc. (There is not really a point to this paragraph, just thought it was interesting).

I hold a Professional Engineer license in the state of Michigan and recertification is handled the same way. You pay a fee every two years to keep your license current, there is no retesting required.

[crelf]

QUOTE (Tom Bress @ Aug 20 2008, 03:49 PM)

I hold a Professional Engineer license in the state of Michigan and recertification is handled the same way.

Here comes another thread hijack - I've heard of the PE membership here in Michigan, and I'm at a loss to really understand what it means. I cruised the website and I think the most I could find out was that it's a group of folks that like to network the synergies (eg: the mission of MSPE is to "promote the ethical, competent and licensed practice of engineering, and to enhance the professional, social and economic well-being of its members"), but what does a Professional Engineer certification really mean? To bring it back on topic a little, if I had to choose between two candidates, why would I choose a PE over a non-PE? Also, I don't see anything about certification requirements to join - is it just a "I work as an engineer and here's my entrance fee"-style application?

PS: The link to the "in-line application" on this page is broken.

[ASTDan]

I am a PE in the state of Michigan.

To become a PE you have to have a degree in engineering from a ABET accredited school, take and pass 8 hour Fundmental of Engineering Exam. After having 4 years of engineering experience you get to take another 8 hour test called the Principle and Practices Exam. You also need references from 4 or 5 people 3 of which need to be PE. Here are the folks who run the test

http://www.ncees.org/

http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-...14638--,00.html

In Michigan all you need to do is pay your money every year and you are still a PE. In other states I know you have to have so many continuing education credits to renew your licence and of course pay money.

Now what do you get.

A rubber stamp, piece of paper, and you can put P.E. after your name.

Now in practice from what I understand if you work on any public stuff i.e. bridges, dams, etc. you need a P.E. to certifiy that it won't fall down.

You can also think of the P.E.=CPA. Anybody with a calculator can be an accountant, but a CPA can.... well do CPA stuff.

I got my PE because I look like I am 10, and I hoped it would give me more crediblity when talking with customers. I think it has done that. That being said I have never gotten a job because I am a PE. I have been asked "So your a PE... I have been thinking about doing that. How was the test?" I also don't see many job's that require a P.E. outside of the Civil Engineering world.

Being a Certified LabVIEW developer has gotten me more work than being a P.E. That being said I write LabVIEW code and don't build bridges. So my stamp sits in my drawer waiting....

Dan

[Tom Bress]

QUOTE (crelf @ Aug 20 2008, 04:14 PM)

Here comes another thread hijack - I've heard of the PE membership here in Michigan, and I'm at a loss to really understand what it means. I cruised the website and I think the most I could find out was that it's a group of folks that like to network the synergies (eg: the mission of MSPE is to "promote the ethical, competent and licensed practice of engineering, and to enhance the professional, social and economic well-being of its members"), but what does a Professional Engineer certification really mean? To bring it back on topic a little, if I had to choose between two candidates, why would I choose a PE over a non-PE? Also, I don't see anything about certification requirements to join - is it just a "I work as an engineer and here's my entrance fee"-style application?

PS: The link to the "in-line application" on is broken.

The PE is the engineering profession's attempt to forge a professional identity similar to that of doctors and lawyers. The national board mission is similar to the MSPE one that you quoted, and is similar to that of the American Medical Association or the bar association. To become a PE you have to do the following:

1. Pass a fundamentals exam (four hours long, multiple choice, covers a broad range of engineering topics from every engineering discipline, math, and econimics). The test questions are pretty easy if you know something about the subject, but cover a very broad range. Think CLAD on steroids.

2. Pass an advanced exam. This is a blue-book, college final type exam in your particular engineering discipline. Four hours, ten multiple-part questions, you get to choose which four you will answer. Open book. Think CLA-level exam.

3. Have a certain number of years work experience

4. Have four letters of recommendation from fellow PEs that have knowledge of your work

It isn't easy to get your PE, and a candidate who has one has worked hard to get it. The unfortunate reality is that it isn't really necessary to have one to be an engineer so the goal of the organization, the professionalization of engineers, is hamstrung. You need a PE to do certain kinds of government work, to put an engineering "seal" on architectural plans, to be an expert witness in a court of law, and most importantly to become a private consultant and offer your services to the public using the title "Engineer". But there is something called the "industrial exemption" that allows engineers in industry (not private practice) to practice engineering without being a PE. Since this covers >95% of working engineers most do not opt for licensure.

One interesting note, though. Legally speaking, non-licensed engineers are not considered "Engineers". They are considered "Engineering service providers".

There are also engineering licensing boards in other countries. They have similar requirements as the US, but vary in the actual details of implementation.

[crelf]

QUOTE (ASTDan)

To become a PE...

QUOTE (Tom Bress)

The PE is...

Thanks for the explination gents - that was exactly what I was after.

[ASTDan]

QUOTE (crelf @ Aug 20 2008, 05:39 PM)

Thanks for the explination Dan - that was exactly what I was after.

No problem. Now Tom and I have to go to the PE bar and talk about this new Australian joke I heard.

Oh wait your not supposed to know.

There is no PE bar, there is no PE bar

That's pub to you

[crelf]

QUOTE (ASTDan @ Aug 20 2008, 05:46 PM)

Now Tom and I have to go to the PE bar and talk about this new Australian joke I heard.

[Tim_S]

QUOTE (crelf @ Aug 20 2008, 04:14 PM)

what does a Professional Engineer certification really mean?

There are federal regulations in certain industries (like power generation) requiring you have to have a PE sign off on any design before it can be implemented (I think this also impacts contracted work). This provides some protection for the company as the PE takes some liability for the design in that it will work and it will not negatively impact other systems (as in moving this thermostat will not impact the safety systems keeping the power plant from blowing up... seriously). A PE that signs off on bad designs will shortly be out of work with, at best, a bad employer reference. To pass the PE, you have to show broad knowledge beyond your field. The first part of the exam is in your field; the second part occurs years later and cannot be in your field.

[Tom Bress]

QUOTE (Tim_S @ Aug 21 2008, 08:57 AM)

There are federal regulations in certain industries (like power generation) requiring you have to have a PE sign off on any design before it can be implemented (I think this also impacts contracted work). This provides some protection for the company as the PE takes some liability for the design in that it will work and it will not negatively impact other systems (as in moving this thermostat will not impact the safety systems keeping the power plant from blowing up... seriously). A PE that signs off on bad designs will shortly be out of work with, at best, a bad employer reference. To pass the PE, you have to show broad knowledge beyond your field. The first part of the exam is in your field; the second part occurs years later and cannot be in your field.

I think you have that last part backwards. The first exam is very broad, and all engineers in all disciplines take the same test. The second exam (the blue book written test) is in your discipline. For example, when I took the second exam it was specifically in the field of mechanical engineering.

Another interesting point (and one that will be fodder for a future blog post) is that having advanced degrees in engineering may modify the requirements for getting a PE, typically in the years of experience required. If you hold both a bachelor's and PhD in the same discipline from ABET accredited programs then the requirement for the first (general) exam is waived.

That's interesting because NI cuts no slack in the certification process for advanced users. This was one of the most common complaints I heard at NI week. Let's say you are a non-certified long-time "advanced" LabVIEW practioner who is working at the CLA level and you want to get certified. You have to start by paying for and taking the CLAD exam. Then you have to pay for and take the CLD exam. Then you have to pay for and take the CLA exam. Even if you are motivated to get certified, that's a lot of hoops to jump through before you get to your appropriate exam level. NI should consider some way of allowing "demonstrably advanced" users take the CLD or CLA without having to take the CLAD first.

[ASTDan]

QUOTE (Tom Bress @ Aug 21 2008, 09:59 AM)

The second exam (the blue book written test) is in your discipline. For example, when I took the second exam it was specifically in the field of mechanical engineering.

Hello Tom,

They changed the format of the test reciently. They have dropped the blue book portion and replaced it with a multiple choice exam. On both the FE, and PE you can choose your specilality.

See this for more details http://www.ncees.org/exams/formats/

Dan

[LAVA 1.0 Content]

Count me in the "If you stay active and demonstrate continued proficiency >>> No Re-Test" catagory.

Ben

[ASTDan]

QUOTE (Tim_S @ Aug 21 2008, 08:57 AM)

PE takes some liability

From what I understand that is what seperates a "professional" from a "non-professional"

Professional as being defined as having a license.

A professional can be held personally liable when they stamp a document when acting in the role as a PE. This I am sure depends on how the law is written in your paticular state/country.

On here somewhere is the law as it pertains to Michigan.

http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-...5472---,00.html

[PJM_labview]

QUOTE (neB @ Aug 21 2008, 07:07 AM)

Count me in the "If you stay active and demonstrate continued proficiency >>> No Re-Test" catagory.

Ben

add me too.

PJM

[Tim_S]

QUOTE (Tom Bress @ Aug 21 2008, 09:59 AM)

I think you have that last part backwards. The first exam is very broad, and all engineers in all disciplines take the same test. The second exam (the blue book written test) is in your discipline. For example, when I took the second exam it was specifically in the field of mechanical engineering.

Quite possibly as my information on Michigan PE exam comes from my father, who last took it in... 1972, I think. He did mention that each state has it's own test, rules and regulations.

[LAVA 1.0 Content]

QUOTE (neB @ Aug 21 2008, 09:07 AM)

Count me in the "If you stay active and demonstrate continued proficiency >>> No Re-Test" catagory.

But who is to say that you are staying active and are demonstrating continued proficiency?

[Tom Bress]

QUOTE (LV_FPGA_SE @ Aug 21 2008, 01:18 PM)

But who is to say that you are staying active and are demonstrating continued proficiency?

Another idea would be for NI to set up a Continuing Education Units (CEU) system. Go to a user group meeting, get a small number of CEUs. Give a presentation at a user group meeting, get a larger number of CEUs. Accumulate them for going to Developer Education Days, NI Week, taking training classes, etc. If you meet a certain target number of CEUs during your certification period you don't have to take a recert test. If you don't meet the target you do take the recert test.

[crelf]

QUOTE (neB @ Aug 21 2008, 10:07 AM)

Count me in the "If you stay active and demonstrate continued proficiency >>> No Re-Test" catagory.

But the recertification is a pretty efficient and cost effective method of demonstrating continued proficiency. What other methods are y'all suggesting?

[LAVA 1.0 Content]

QUOTE (Tom Bress @ Aug 21 2008, 01:25 PM)

Another idea would be for NI to set up a Continuing Education Units (CEU) system. Go to a user group meeting, get a small number of CEUs. Give a presentation at a user group meeting, get a larger number of CEUs. Accumulate them for going to Developer Education Days, NI Week, taking training classes, etc. If you meet a certain target number of CEUs during your certification period you don't have to take a recert test. If you don't meet the target you do take the recert test.

adding to Tom's list...

Writing Nuggets,

Logging CAR's,

and how about a little "peer review" while we are at it. What I had in mind is when it comes time for me to re-certify, I could post to the Dark-Side or here on LAVA looking for sponsors. If you get three or more sponsors (indicating that they can confirm I have remained active) no re-test.

All of these above example would help make LV better (CAR's), Grow the LV-KB (Nuggets) or build the LV community/Save NI money to support LV.

It just seems there are activities above and beyond the NI training that make us better LV developers that just don't count.

Ben

[crelf]

QUOTE (Tom Bress @ Aug 21 2008, 01:25 PM)

Another idea would be for NI to set up a Continuing Education Units (CEU) system. Go to a user group meeting, get a small number of CEUs. Give a presentation at a user group meeting, get a larger number of CEUs. Accumulate them for going to Developer Education Days, NI Week, taking training classes, etc. If you meet a certain target number of CEUs during your certification period you don't have to take a recert test.

Wouldn't it be cheaper and faster to just take the recert?

[LAVA 1.0 Content]

adding to the previous list...

What about the CLA that teaches LV Advanced regularly? It seems that teach that course should count.

Ben

[Tom Bress]

QUOTE (crelf @ Aug 21 2008, 03:34 PM)

Wouldn't it be cheaper and faster to just take the recert?

Actually, I don't know. I haven't had to recertify yet, ever, so I don't know what is involved. I've always gotten the next higher certification before my old one ran out.

Does it cost money? What are the recerts like for each level of certification?