Mistreatment of new members

[Michael Aivaliotis]

Recent posts have been downright mean! If you don't think the topic is worthy of your time or effort to respond then move along. You don't have to respond. Especially not with a smart ass remark that just makes you feel better. Veterans around here lately seem to be ganging up on new members in the same way schoolyard bullies do. Yes people, we know you're ace LabVIEW Guru's and it seems very silly for someone to be asking: "How do I get a VI to pop-up when I click a button". Well, I was in the same position when I started LabVIEW. It took me 3 months of development before I found out how to do this simple thing myself! In the end, my company hired an Alliance Member to come in a show me this and other tricks. I only wish I had something like LAVA back then.

What are you doing to help? Why not write a Wiki article describing how to do this? Why stop there? Write an article on all of the issues plaguing new users. I am appalled at the tone and treatment of new members and those where English is not their first language. It's unfortunate that LabVIEW is not a very popular language since those members cannot find help in their native tongue and so resort to joining English forums for help. It is what it is. If in doubt, ask probing questions, get to the root of the issue. Be constructive and helpful. If not, don't respond! Please.

It used to be that, if you were a LabVIEW user among users, there was a certain bond. Others would help you overcome hurdles and get you hooked on LabVIEW. What ever happened to that?

[Gary Rubin]

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ Apr 28 2007, 09:06 PM)

http://forums.lavag.org/Security-System-t7674.html' target="_blank">Recent posts have been downright mean! ...

Thank you Michael.

I think that really needed to be said, and it certainly helps that you are the one who said it.

I know I'm a relative newcomer to the board and the recent abuse of Nullll and Sally have had me second-guessing my own past postings. Am I advanced enough? Am I really an "architect"? I shouldn't have to think such things.

I understand the desire to keep the SNR high at LAVA, after all, that is one of the main reasons I hang out here rather than the NI forums. There's got to be a better way, however, than telling users that they aren't good enough to post here. You shouldn't have to have an CLD to ask a question, no matter what the forum.

:2cents:

Gary

[PaulG.]

Previous to January of this year I was only an occasional LAVA visitor. I just got a lot more practical advice from the NI forums. That has not changed.

Since I got my RSS feed working I have at least glanced over almost everything posted here since.

I've already stated my opinion regarding posts that are not "asked the right way": Responses are set to 'ignore' by DEFAULT.

That said, more than half of what I read here is either obscure guru-level stuff (X-Controls, LV , etc.), bashing Nullll, or continuing the bizarre 5th dimension thread.

If the more active senior-level developers spent half as much time explaining "X-Controls, point A to point B", "X-Controls, point B to point C" or "The Joys and Evils of SVN" or "How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Variants" as they do responding to Nulll's and Sally's we would be a lot better off - and it would really reduce the "snob" level I pick up here.

I can't help but feel a little intimidated myself. I know a small handful of hard-core LV developers who can write kick-arse code in their sleep. But even some of them couldn't tell me the slightest thing about an X-control or when/where/why to use a Variant.

I count on this place to explain stuff like this to me. This is a great forum ... but it has been heading in a downward direction lately. Have we forgotten why we are here?

Regards everyone,

PaulG.

[crelf]

I agree with you Mike, but I think you're oversimplifying what's been going on recently on LAVA. I do not necessarily support or condone the posts that you're talking about, although IMHO I think the reasons that the recent retaliation has occurred has been largely due to the fact that the thread authors aren't even trying to comply with the "How to use the LAVA website, a usefull guide (read me first)" and "How to Ask Questions the Smart Way" pages. Although some of the posts have been pretty harsh, (again, IMHO) the majority of what I've seen posted has been after other users have repeatedly pointed the thread authors in the right direction and asked them politely to conform to the spirit of the forum. I have yet to see a "veteran" user jump on a new user immediately, without first letting them know that what they're posting isn't quite appropriate, or could be asked better, or they could try it and post their efforts first, or they could let us know if it's homework, etc. The thread you linked to is the result of two relatively new users who had both separately been asked repeatedly to mend their ways, and then the veteran users were ignored and/or chastised themselves, and it was certainly not veteran users just being mean for the sake of it.

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ Apr 29 2007, 11:06 AM)

I am appalled at the tone and treatment of new members and those where English is not their first language.

I'm also appalled by behaviour that belittles users based on their grasp of any particular language. That said, I don't remember any recent cases of members bullying other members because their English is poor.

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ Apr 29 2007, 11:06 AM)

It used to be that, if you were a LabVIEW user among users, there was a certain bond. Others would help you overcome hurdles and get you hooked on LabVIEW. What ever happened to that?

It still exists and is strong (the absolutely vast majority of LAVA proves that), but not so much when HH's are misrepresenting themselves.

QUOTE(Gary Rubin @ Apr 29 2007, 11:26 AM)

Am I advanced enough? Am I really an "architect"? I shouldn't have to think such things.

You don't have to think such things - that's not what this is about at all. All you need to do is make sure you ask questions in constructive ways - just follow the guidelines in "How to use the LAVA website, a usefull guide (read me first)" and "How to Ask Questions the Smart Way".

QUOTE(PaulG. @ Apr 29 2007, 01:01 PM)

This is a great forum ... but it has been heading in a downward direction lately.

Sure, there's been a handful of these incidents, but I strongly (you can tell I mean it, 'cause it's underlined ) disagree with a statement that suggests that LAVA is in a downward driection. IMO, that statement is too extreme.

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ Apr 29 2007, 11:06 AM)

If you don't think the topic is worthy of your time or effort to respond then move along.

When all is said and done, that's an excellent line of thought: If you can't say somethin' nice, don't say nothin' at all. LAVA's main-stream now, and we're going to get HHs here whether we like it or not. I agree with Mike: just leave 'em be. (that said, if the "ignore user" feature worked for the RSS feeds, I'd be much less enclined to tease the bears )

[Michael Aivaliotis]

QUOTE(Gary Rubin @ Apr 28 2007, 06:26 PM)

Am I advanced enough? Am I really an "architect"? I shouldn't have to think such things.

Everyone is welcome here as far as I'm concerned. People already know that this website is called LAVA and what the two A's stand for. Perhaps they all want to learn from the experts, I know that's what I'm here for. I'm always learning something.

QUOTE(PaulG. @ Apr 28 2007, 08:01 PM)

If the more active senior-level developers spent half as much time explaining "X-Controls, point A to point B", "X-Controls, point B to point C" or "The Joys and Evils of SVN" or "How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Variants" as they do responding to Nulll's and Sally's we would be a lot better off - and it would really reduce the "snob" level I pick up here.

I agree with you on this. I have always been open about sharing my knowledge about LabVIEW. I have put on countless presentations at various LAVA meetings because I truly believe that we should all be programming at the same advanced level. Those that think LabVIEW is not powerful or cannot do this or that, think that way because no-one has shown them the light. We all need to give up our secrets for the common good.

QUOTE(PaulG. @ Apr 28 2007, 08:01 PM)

I can't help but feel a little intimidated myself. I know a small handful of hard-core

LV

developers who can write kick-arse code in their sleep.

But even some of them couldn't tell me the slightest thing about an X-control or when/where/why to use a Variant. I count on this place to explain stuff like this to me. This is a great forum ... but it has been heading in a downward direction lately. Have we forgotten why we are here?

Yes, it's about getting at the root of the feature or technology and figuring out "why the hell should I use this, and why should I care". One of the reasons I started the Wiki section of the site is for this reason. There, we have more time and can focus on explaining features and how to use them in various use cases.

[Tomi Maila]

My few words to this thread. Michael, you are right, nobody should be bullied here at LAVA. This problem is all about very basic psychology. People get frustrated when they try to help newcomers and these newcomers ignore everything they say. I was able to foresee the kind of bullying to occur sooner or later. What we need is constructive moderation.

1. First when newcomers ask a question in a way that it really cannot be answered as there is not enough information, it would be better to have an answer template that guides the newcomers to conform the forum rules and guidelines. It's really better to have a nicely written template answer than to make the advanced users to consume their time explaining the guidelines. Why? The template answer can be nicely written whereas the answers of the experienced users is not always that nicely written. Also because experienced users don't get so annyoyed if they don't give a lot of effort trying to explaing guidelines to newcomers that then ignore the guidelines complitely. In addition the message may get its audience in a better way.
   
2. When a post is malformatted or doesn't have enough information to be answered, then it would be wise to moderate the message away from that specific forum to some kind of temporary forum to avoid other users getting annoyed. This would also be an indication to newcomers that there are rules and guideliness that needs to be obeyed.
   

The moderation should not be left to the hands of one or two people as then it would feel like a job. There should be at least a few handfuls of regular users who could moderate or an automatic moderation button that would do the moderation, either from a single click or when more people press the button.

Societies work only if there are some kind of rules either written or implicit. These rules need to be obeyed or the societies become anarchies. In every society that has grown large enough some kind of rule-enforcement is needed. Internet forums make no exception. I think LAVA has lately progressed toward this anarchy state because of confrontations between newcomers and experienced users.

[i2dx]

I agree with Michael in a way. There has been a relative harsh tone to a few new members, not to all.

I concur with Michaels position, that newbies must not be bashed just because they are new to LV and ask questions, which are "to basic" for some of the gurus around here. I needed e.g. 2 month to find out, how to change the connector pane pattern, obviously I missed that part in the getting started manual, and I have not forgotten that. Input from an other human makes learning much easier, and I'm always willing to help out. So if whoever thinks that a question is „to simple", he/she is free to ignore it. No one is urged here to answer questions, which are *below its level*. But I'd like to ammend, that teaching the apprentices has allways been a fixed part in mastery.

The other side of the medal is, that the amount of NULLs is increasing - not only here, but in other communities, too. If I say NULL, it's a synonym for people, who are not serious with learning, their only interest is to get a solution as soon as possible, and are arrogant and/or brash. I, for my part, have a problem with those people, and it's not funny if you get CALLED / eMailed / PMed by those people, just because they managed to find out your telephone number or email address and think, that <sarcasm> you have enough knowledge to solve their problem (of course they only take the best .... <argh>)</sarcasm>. If I compare LAVA to my living room, this behaviour is like: someone you don't know comes in, throws a can full of trash in a corner, shows you the finger and demands, that you clean this mess up immediately, because you are experienced in cleaning up ...

IMHO those people need some adequate, clear words. Choosing an arrogant tone is a proven means in discussion forums against dumb bricks. Being arrogant or hash is not intended to show the world that I'm a super duper whatever guru, but just a good way to get rid of annoying NULLs.

I know from my experience from other forums, that from time to time you have to bash the worst ones, to keep up the discipline . Other potential NULLs may read that and get put off. If you don't, you'll attract more and more of them and the forum will become unreadable / the SNR will increase.

to cut a log story short: newbies = welcome - homework hustlers = go somewhere else, nobody likes you, nowhere! Why? because nobody likes the idea, that he does the *work* and someone other gets the *merits*.

Concerning good / bad language: it took 55 minutes to write this post, inclusive spell checking. Checking it's language as a non native speaker is a way to express it's appreciation, too. And even it's not perfect english, it's at least readable (at least I hope so) and not a post like

QUOTE

U got answer for me? Nedd serial key for Lapwvie xx, need help quick, its URGENT!! thanks!

<shiver>

[Yair]

I agree that ignoring is better than harsh words (that's what I've been doing), but I also agree that these users brought this on themselves. Even I made a remark a while back about one of these users which was considered offensive and deleted (I thought it was more amusing than offensive, but I understand why Michael deleted it).

In general, I fully agree with Tomi about the usefulness of easy-to-use, pre-formulated replies. These allow giving a polite and relevant reply without having to bother with anything. You can see a good example here. Providing links and advice can allow the user to continue on their own.

QUOTE(i2dx @ Apr 29 2007, 10:40 AM)

And even it's not perfect english, it's at least readable (at least I hope so) and not a post like

QUOTE

U got answer for me? Nedd serial key for Lapwvie xx, need help quick, its URGENT!! thanks!

<shiver>

No, I don't see the problems with http://forums.lavag.org/PLEEEEEEEASE-hELP-me-t5943.html' target="_blank">these posts.

[Jim Kring]

I think that this thread should be titled "The proper treatment of abusive members". Let's focus on what's appropriate behavior on both sides of this and move on.

[crelf]

QUOTE(Jim Kring @ Apr 30 2007, 10:14 AM)

Let's focus on what's appropriate behavior on both sides of this and move on.

Excellent idea.

[Michael Aivaliotis]

See Here:

http://forums.lavag.org/Wiki-LAVA-Forum-Gu...ines-t7691.html

Let's hash out the LAVA Bible.

[sam]

I don’t post a lot, but I have been a member for a while now. I think the fact that this forum is good place to post interesting and advanced topics, has made me stick around. So as far as I know everyone here goes out of their way to answer posts, and I think they should be commended for it.

Some observations I have had with these two new members, maybe these thing I am saying will ring a bell to others. Also if others See this they may benefit or not.

Their typing is their Chat-Like typing, reminds me of my little cousin playing video-games. Whenever I see this I ignore the whole post, make mental note and if repeated ignore the user all together. If this typing is because of English language then over time I would realize that fact and would be okay with it.

They keep on saying they are working on a project (emphasizing on project) kind of leading to a work-related projects, like most people here. But when you read the questions you know it is some school assignment, so you already getting a feeling of being lied to. Again this is my opinion.

The questions are none-stop. Again that is okay with me, I don’t answer but I get the feeling that they are trying to get a passing mark in course without paying their dues.

So If I am wrong I apologize. I think a well written introduction of their status would make all my point go away.

[TG]

I am relatively new here but I always try to read at least the first two sentences.

If I get a gut feeling that they were not constructed with some attention (as would be expected for anyone seriously

seeking help ) than I would be inclined to ignore the rest.

However, I have learned not to judge the absense of good english as a

reason to ignore a post. There are a more than a few few non english speakers at this Forum who are

quite advanced in their use of LabVIEW.

In the end however , we all are free to simply ignore and move on.

[Gary Rubin]

QUOTE(crelf @ Apr 28 2007, 11:25 PM)

You don't have to think such things - that's not what this is about at all. All you need to do is make sure you ask questions in constructive ways - just follow the guidelines in "How to use the LAVA website, a usefull guide (read me first)" and "How to Ask Questions the Smart Way".

It's not part of what raised Michael's hackles, but I do think it is part of the issue of treatment of new members. I have seen more than one post answered with the comment "This is an advanced forum. Go spend time on the NI forums and come back when you've learned more". That might not be as rude as some comments have been, but it certainly doesn't sound welcoming either.

[JDave]

QUOTE(crelf @ Apr 28 2007, 08:25 PM)

LAVA's main-stream now, and we're going to get HHs here whether we like it or not. I agree with Mike: just leave 'em be.

I thought I would comment that the presence of HHs is not entirely a bad thing. It shows that not only LAVA, but LabVIEW is becoming main-stream and is featured in academic settings. As more curricula use LabVIEW, more students will come to the internet looking for knowledge, insight, and occasionally someone to do their homework for them.

I really like the recent addition of wiki articles for many reasons. But a good benefit along the lines of this thread is that it can provide a 'standard' way of answering simple questions that are covered in wiki articles, as well as politely remind newcomers of what is expected. It also allows people to another way to give to the community.

As a newcomer myself (I give much less than I receive) I appreciate help that I have received from the LAVA community. But I must acknowledge that I hesitate at times to ask questions because I wonder whether they will be advanced enough or appropriate enough.

David

[Ton Plomp]

QUOTE(Gary Rubin @ Apr 30 2007, 07:58 PM)

"This is an advanced forum. Go spend time on the NI forums and come back when you've learned more". That might not be as rude as some comments have been, but it certainly doesn't sound welcoming either.

I've used this advice (and that is all it is) with the accompanying message that the user base of LAVA is much smaller than on NI forums (look at the number of people online). That NI forums has people paid to answer and most likely someone of their school has asked the Q a year/trimester before them.

but I think we all started by asking questions. The reason I joined LAVA was because non-users have a limit on the number of searches they could have.

Ton

[crelf]

QUOTE(Gary Rubin @ May 1 2007, 03:58 AM)

I have seen more than one post answered with the comment "This is an advanced forum. Go spend time on the NI forums and come back when you've learned more".

I've seen a few of those too, but I'm pretty sure they were after users have tried to help, and realised from the poster's reponses that they haven't read the manual, tried to post an example of the issue, and have no LabVIEW knowledge at all. I think that the NI Discussion Forum is an excellent place for people like that - it has far more people that are inclined to help a user understnad the difference between a control and an indicator. Whilst I'm all for an esoteric "everyone's welcome", I don't really beleive that it's true. I'm not saying that LAVA is better than anywhere else, just that it's different, and I honestly don't beleive that it's anywhere near the best place for someone who's just taken the shrink warp of their LabVIEW box.

QUOTE(dsaunders @ May 1 2007, 04:27 AM)

As a newcomer myself...

I really don't think of you as a newcomer Dave - especially the type I'm talking about. I'm referring to those who are still at school and have just attended their first LabVIEW class. You joined LAVA over 2 years ago and have numerous worthwhile posts to your credit

[Louis Manfredi]

I agree with much of what's already been said--

People should be treated gently & given the benefit of the doubt.

For some people the best approach is to gently ignore them.

But I would like to add-- and I may be repeating myself from a previous thread on the HH topic-- if there were some way we could encourage the teachers making the assignments to lurk on the site and keep an eye open for edvidence of plagarism in work submitted to them, the problem might be greatly mitigated.

/rant

The HH issue is more serious than its immediate burden. Some of these folks end up getting jobs as engineers based on their plagarism. They end up burdening us all on a long term basis because they lack of skill or motivation to carry their share of the weight. In the workplace, as well as in academia, this often goes unnoticed by supervisors who should be more attentive.

/endrant

Best Regards, Louis

[crelf]

QUOTE(Louis Manfredi @ May 1 2007, 11:45 PM)

The HH issue is more serious than its immediate burden. Some of these folks end up getting jobs as engineers based on their plagarism.

That's an excellent point Louis.

[robijn]

QUOTE(tcplomp @ Apr 30 2007, 08:40 PM)

I've used this advice (and that is all it is) with the accompanying message that the user base of LAVA is much smaller than on NI forums (look at the number of people online). That NI forums has people paid to answer and most likely someone of their school has asked the Q a year/trimester before them.

I agree with you Ton. I think Lava is meant to be smaller, given the topics. We should not try to serve every individual with a LV question. Then we could better have joined the forum with NI's forum. It sounds really nice to help everyone but it we'll be biting our own tail.

I have not seen a single incident where we were "unfairly evil", so I don't think we have to worry about the forum decency yet. I think you will sometimes need to explain again that "things don't work like that", because some people just don't (want to) understand.

Joris

[Michael Aivaliotis]

It's very simple to enact a policy that bans homework type questions if we all agree. If any slip through, a simple PM to me and their post and account is removed.

[crelf]

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ May 2 2007, 02:46 AM)

If any slip through, a simple PM to me and their post and account is removed.

It's even easier: just click on " ! REPORT " next to the post.

[Michael Aivaliotis]

QUOTE(crelf @ May 1 2007, 10:07 AM)

It's even easier: just click on " ! REPORT " next to the post.

Yes, exactly. Members should always use this feature any time they want my attention drawn to a post. I can't be everywhere but the Report Button is the most effective.

[Jim Kring]

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ May 1 2007, 07:28 PM)

Yes, exactly. Members should always use this feature any time they want my attention drawn to a post. I can't be everywhere but the Report Button is the most effective.

How about this? When a homework hustler posts a message that does not conform to the forum rules and expectations, a moderator will do the following:

1. move it into a special "Homework Hustler" forum (maybe, not syndicated via LAVA's RSS feed)
   
2. reply to the topic with a standard, canned response (which includes a "Homework Hustler" emoticon, of course) explaining why the posting was rejected and how to "try again"
   
3. lock the topic so that neither the homework hustler or the homework hustler hecklers have a chance to butt heads.
   

Moving the posting into a special "homework hustler" forum will create a nice archive that will amuse the homework hustler hecklers and create good examples of how not to post questions to LAVA.

[Phil Duncan]

QUOTE(Jim Kring @ May 2 2007, 12:12 PM)

Moving the posting into a special "homework hustler" forum will create a nice archive that will amuse the homework hustler hecklers and create good examples of how not to post questions to LAVA.

This will also make a nice repository for the teachers/lecturers who set the assignments to peruse occasionally as Louis mentioned.

Cheers & Beers

:thumbup: :beer: