IMAQ image indicator is black now

[jcarmody]

I've posted this on NI's forum, but the Machine Vision group isn't particularly active. - https://forums.ni.com/t5/Machine-Vision/IMAQ-image-indicator-is-black-now/m-p/4137840#M53508

We've been running a version of a machine-vision/control software since 2012, with the latest revision being LabVIEW 2018 released a year ago. It uses two analog cameras and some digital IO, and the cameras stopped displaying the image on Friday. I can snap/grab images in MAX, but not with the LabVIEW software (or an executable built on just the image-grabbing part of the larger code.)

I made a smaller program that snaps a picture and saves it to disk.  This, too, fails to show me the picture but does put the picture to disk.  Only, when I read the saved image (using IMAQ ReadFile 2) I get the same black-filled indicator (but it works properly on my dev PC).  The problem seems to be only with IMAQ displaying the images to an image indicator.

We thought that something broke when someone installed another LabVIEW program the day the problem started, but I replaced the (Win7) PC with a freshly-imaged (Win10) PC this morning and reinstalled our software along with MAX (20) and Vision Acquisition (18.5, the same as was on the original PC).  This had no affect on the problem.  You could have knocked me over with a feather.

We've since swapped the video card, camera and NI PCI-1410 frame-grabber.  I was grasping at straws here, but I'd take a straw at this point.

Do you have any ideas?  Any troubleshooting steps I could take?

 

[X___]

I am not sure I understand the problem: is this an IMAQ (DAQ) related problem or a Vision Development (image display control) issue? It sounds like the latter, but your inclusion of details of image acquisition is confusing.

It might be totally irrelevant, but an app I develop in LV 2019 (using Vision Development 2019) failed to work when a user installed both runtimes on his computer (LV RTE and VDE RTE). It sounded like a Vision Development module license issue, which was strange as there should be a grace period for demos, but eventually it turned out that this was fixed when the user installed the 2020 runtime (I had selected the option to have the code able to be run with later version of the RTE). The symptoms were not a black image though (there was no image), but one of the VDE errors when one of the Vision VIs was called. My point is that there might be some issues with version conflicts...

As far as trouble shooting, post your demo VI, I have 2018 SP1 installed on a machine where this is the only version isntalled, so I can test that.

[drjdpowell]

I've encountered a black imaq image display in exes, solved by unchecking the box to allow running in a later runtime version.  Don't know if that is related to your problem.

[X___]

1 hour ago, drjdpowell said:

I've encountered a black imaq image display in exes, solved by unchecking the box to allow running in a later runtime version.  Don't know if that is related to your problem.

Have you talked with NI about that? I was debating whether that was worth for me to investigate further. I have learned to let a few versions go before upgrading and the thought of having to recommend using a RTE I haven't tested thoroughly (or even superficially) just for my app to be functional is not too exciting. Where is this written that checking that box meant you HAD to use the LATEST RTE? This sounds like a bug.

[drjdpowell]

9 hours ago, X___ said:

Have you talked with NI about that?

Like most problems, once I had a workaround, I no longer spent any time thinking about it.

[jcarmody]

I can confirm that uninstalling the later RTE resolved my problem (as did recompiling with that switch deselected).  I can also say that I've told NI in the context of my currently-open-but-about-to-be-closed Service Request.

If you worked with me, drjdpowell, I'd get you a cash award large enough for a nice dinner for two (or more).  Here I can only say thank you.  Thank you very much.

Jim

[X___]

 

 

6 hours ago, drjdpowell said:

Like most problems, once I had a workaround, I no longer spent any time thinking about it.

Sure, but are you not concerned enough when you see a pattern of concerning "features" piling up on NI's end, to at least suggest they pay attention? I am not making a living from NI's products. You seem to be...

The fact that checking the "Allow future versions of the LabVIEW Runtime to run this application" should really read "and consequently make it impossible for intermediate versions to run your application" is one of the things which contribute to erode my trust in NI. And you know what they say about erosion. It starts with a trickle, and soon enough, you have a mountain tumbling down.

[walker]

On 3/23/2021 at 10:52 PM, drjdpowell said:

I've encountered a black imaq image display in exes, solved by unchecking the box to allow running in a later runtime version.  Don't know if that is related to your problem.

Thank you, That solved the issue by me. You saved me a couple of hours.

[Antoine Benoit]

Hello,

I lost a couple of days trying to understand why sundently my executable had messed up image display. ( while it works in dev mode, it did not anymore after compilation).

I could solve it  by unchecking the box to allow running in a later runtime version as proposed in the chat.

So i just want to say thank you .

 

[Rolf Kalbermatter]

On 6/29/2021 at 10:05 AM, Antoine Benoit said:

I could solve it  by unchecking the box to allow running in a later runtime version as proposed in the chat.

I believe this setting should have been by default switched off and still should be. To many problems with it. If someone wants this feature (and is willing to test his application with it thoroughly on several different computers) they always can switch it on. I don't think it is currently worth the hassle.

[mcduff]

Not commenting on whether to allow future versions ...

However, if it is checked and you want to use an image control that won't change colors in the EXE version, the Image Control in the DMC controls package available on VIPM does not suffer from this problem.

[X___]

13 minutes ago, mcduff said:

However, if it is checked and you want to use an image control that won't change colors in the EXE version, the Image Control in the DMC controls package available on VIPM does not suffer from this problem.

I am not sure I understand the reasoning. The DMC image display control is just a  cosmetic modification of the original control. It doesn't change anything to the underlying coding.

It seems to become a consensus that checking that box sounded like a good idea, but turned out to be a very bad one in some cases. I have stopped checking it when releasing a standalone app, as I don't have the bandwidth for testing all corner cases.

Again, as long as nobody reports the issue with NI, nothing is going to be done about it. I won't because of the above sentence, but someone making his or her living from products developed with these tools might want to send a wake up message to NI. You can't engineer ambitiously if you dread every single checkbox in the application builder.

[mcduff]

2 hours ago, X___ said:

I am not sure I understand the reasoning. The DMC image display control is just a  cosmetic modification of the original control. It doesn't change anything to the underlying coding.

It seems to become a consensus that checking that box sounded like a good idea, but turned out to be a very bad one in some cases. I have stopped checking it when releasing a standalone app, as I don't have the bandwidth for testing all corner cases.

Again, as long as nobody reports the issue with NI, nothing is going to be done about it. I won't because of the above sentence, but someone making his or her living from products developed with these tools might want to send a wake up message to NI. You can't engineer ambitiously if you dread every single checkbox in the application builder.

Just reporting that I used the DMC image control, had the box checked, and did NOT have a black image display. (LabVIEW 2020SP1, 64bit, Win10)

No commentary on whether to check/uncheck box. Just suggesting a possible work around for folks who may want to check the box.

[X___]

1 hour ago, mcduff said:

Just reporting that I used the DMC image control, had the box checked, and did NOT have a black image display. (LabVIEW 2020SP1, 64bit, Win10)

No commentary on whether to check/uncheck box. Just suggesting a possible work around for folks who may want to check the box.

Let's clarify:

if you develop in LV 2020 and use the released standalone with LV/Vision 2020 RTE, I am assuming there is indeed no problem (I haven't tried)

If you develop in LV 2019 and use the released standalone with LV/Vision 2019 RTE, things work fine (I have tried, box checked or unchecked).

It is only when you release in LV 2019 with checkbox checked AND use the released standalone with LV/Vision 2020 RTE that things go South (my experience of that is indirect: a user reported a problem that sounds related, but I can't verify that it was that specific problem, as it was subsequently solved by using LV 2019 RTE - I think. However there have been two other reports above that seem to confirm this pattern. It would be nice to have NI look into it in order to move from the anecdote level to the bug tracking one).

[mcduff]

29 minutes ago, X___ said:

Let's clarify:

if you develop in LV 2020 and use the released standalone with LV/Vision 2020 RTE, I am assuming there is indeed no problem (I haven't tried)

If you develop in LV 2019 and use the released standalone with LV/Vision 2019 RTE, things work fine (I have tried, box checked or unchecked).

It is only when you release in LV 2019 with checkbox checked AND use the released standalone with LV/Vision 2020 RTE that things go South (my experience of that is indirect: a user reported a problem that sounds related, but I can't verify that it was that specific problem, as it was subsequently solved by using LV 2019 RTE - I think. However there have been two other reports above that seem to confirm this pattern. It would be nice to have NI look into it in order to move from the anecdote level to the bug tracking one).

You thought it out more than me. The test will be when I get 2021.