Teenagers, reasoning, and fairness

[Daklu]

During our family 4th of July get-together I was talking to my almost-14-year-old nephew, "B." He was telling me how he and his dad had a really hard time finding root beer extract to make the homemade root beer. When they finally did find some, there were only half a dozen bottles remaining and B wanted to buy them all. His dad--my brother--said no, and B finished his story with an emphatic, "It's not fair!"

I couldn't pass up the opportunity to needle him a bit, so I said, "What's not fair about it?"

B: "I wanted to get all 6 bottles but my dad wouldn't do it!"

Me: "Right. Why isn't that fair?"

B: "Because he wouldn't get 6 bottles!"

Me: "I understand what you're saying. Why is that unfair?"

B: "I wanted to get lots of extract so we could make a lot of root beer!"

Me: "I see... you wanted to get all the extract but your dad said no."

B: "Yes!"

Me: "But you still haven't explained what's unfair about it."

At that point gave me a look turned to my daughter (also almost 14 years old) and as they walked away I heard him say, "I don't understand what he's saying."

That made my day.

[jcarmody]

It's amusing, albeit a bit sad, when a teen-ager acts this way. Wait 'till he grows and...

[Daklu]

It's amusing, albeit a bit sad, when a teen-ager acts this way.

I should clarify that he wasn't being whiney and childish. He was laughing and quite happy during our conversation. Still, the basic truth

Not getting what you want != unfair

apparently was not only a new idea to him, but appeared to be completely beyond his comprehension. On the other hand, he could have just been being a normal teenager trying to express his individuality by arguing with me, though if that's the case he picked a poor point to argue. Either way, he's a smart kid--he'll figure it out.

He just made the unfortunate mistake of commenting about fairness at a time when I've just about reached the limit with my younger (10 yo) daughter's complaints about the same thing.

[Roderic]

Maybe he thinks it's too obvious to be explained. Maybe unfair = lame for a teenager ???

[Cat]

He just made the unfortunate mistake of commenting about fairness at a time when I've just about reached the limit with my younger (10 yo) daughter's complaints about the same thing.

I don't know how many times my mom said to me "Life isn't fair!" when I was growing up. Now I get to say it to my own daughter (15yo). Not too often tho; she learns quicker than I did at her age. :-)

[Aristos Queue]

A game is unfair when someone changes the rules.

Life is a game.

As a teenager, all the rules are changed by forces outside the player's control.

By that standard, being a teenager == unfair.

The biggest problem, of course, is that English allows you to stop after the word "unfair." We have transitive verbs which require a direct object. This is a situation that would benefit from some sort of "transitive adjective", where just speaking required you to fill in the blank "unfair between _____ and _____". Unfair, after all, requires an imbalance between two parties. There is no "unfair" in a game of solitare.

[crelf]

Me: "But you still haven't explained what's unfair about it."

Sounds like you're getting old...

[vugie]

...There is no "unfair" in a game of solitare.

Until you are not able to solve it 5 times in row

[Cat]

Until you are not able to solve it 5 times in row

Then you just need to learn to cheat better.

[Yair]

There is no "unfair" in a game of solitare.

How about not being able to solve it even a single time, because the cards have been dealt in such a way that you can't even make a move or where you can only make a single move and then you're stuck (which I have seen happen more than once)?

[Jordan Kuehn]

How about not being able to solve it even a single time, because the cards have been dealt in such a way that you can't even make a move or where you can only make a single move and then you're stuck (which I have seen happen more than once)?

Then it's not unfair, it's just a flawed game.

[Val Brown]

"Unfair" to a teenager (and really to anyone) means: "Not how I believe it SHOULD be" or "...how I want it to be".

You say to him: It sounds like you think not getting what you want is unfair. Does that apply to everyone or just you?

[Daklu]

A game is unfair when someone changes the rules.

I disagree--rule changes aren't inherently unfair. In professional competitions rule changes are made to restore competitive balance. (Though admittedly, they are not often changed while the game is in progress.) A game is unfair when the players don't play by the same set of rules. Adults and children operate under a different set of rules; therefore, the microcosm of parent-child interaction is indeed unfair.

I might argue that unfairness by and large goes away when looking at the larger picture of interactions between all parents and all children. (i.e. All parent-child interactions are subject to the same set of rules imposed on them by societal norms. B being subject to the decision of his dad isn't unfair because all teenagers are subject to the decisions of their parents.) I think, however, this line of reasoning wouldn't find anchor in his hormone-addled brain.

Regardless, I often heard the same thing from my mother as Cat did, "life isn't fair." I agree, but why is that something we have to learn? Why do we expect life to be fair? Why do we teach fairness to young children and expect them to behave fairly, only to turn around and destroy their understanding of the world when they're older?

Life is a game.

For me, thinking of life as a game implies winners and losers. Megan, my 13-yo, is very much about winning--especially wrt verbal confrontation. She refuses to be the first to stop arguing because then she feels like she has lost. I'm trying to teach her there are no winners in a fight. Dragging it out just makes everybody lose more.

My personal view is life is a series of experiences. Winning and losing are experiences, but we don't typically say an experience wins or loses; it just is. The change in perspective helped me stop deriving my sense of self worth from the events that happened in my life and has allowed me to be much happier overall.

The biggest problem, of course, is that English allows you to stop after the word "unfair."

Oh, of course.

(If I knew what a transitive verb was and could pick a direct object out of a lineup, I'm sure I would agree with you.)

Sounds like you're getting old...

I was 29 years old when I first discovered I could no longer will my body to do things it didn't want to do. It's been downhill ever since.

You say to him: It sounds like you think not getting what you want is unfair. Does that apply to everyone or just you?

I was hoping he would he would make the connection without having to spell it out for him. I prefer letting my kids "discover" why their reasoning is flawed rather than pointing it out to them. It's not always possible, but I think they learn better that way.

[ASTDan]

I tell my daughter fair to who.

What she perceives as unfair to her is fair to me...

Of course this line of reasoning doesn't work on a tired 3.5 year old when she wants to play barbies and doesn't want to go to bed.

By the way does anyone know how to play Barbies? My daughter doesn't want to teach me... I don't think this is fair.

[Wire Warrior]

Oh this sounds SOOO much like conversation at my house with my two boys (17 yo and 16 yo). The other day I looked at one of them and said "You know....you're going to be amazed at how much smarter I get over the next 5 years. Do what you got to do."

Though lately letting the older one get the 1969 Ford F100 truck has taught some valuable lessons. Turns out I knew more than he thought about the amount of work and cost in such a project. LOL

KIds....I wouldn't get rid of them for money. Usually...;-)

Jason

[Aristos Queue]

Adults and children operate under a different set of rules; therefore, the microcosm of parent-child interaction is indeed unfair.

Looked at from that standard, the child is actually analyzing the situation quite correctly -- it isn't fair that they have to go to bed and you don't. For it to be fair, they would have to factor in that they will get to play under the different rules eventually, but then, even that isn't fair because you were given a head start.

I recently heard another variation on this, one from a teenager. His parent was preventing him from going to an event where there was likely to be drinking, which he saw as unfair because he hadn't done anything (yet) for the parent to accuse him of participating in drinking. It was punishment before the crime, from his point of view.

[Daklu]

I recently heard another variation on this, one from a teenager. His parent was preventing him from going to an event where there was likely to be drinking, which he saw as unfair because he hadn't done anything (yet) for the parent to accuse him of participating in drinking. It was punishment before the crime, from his point of view.

Yeah, and if not allowing him to go to the event was intended as punishment I'd be inclined to agree with him. On the other hand, if the parent disallowed it to prevent the teenager from being in an environment where he is more likely to make bad decisions, then the whole issue of fairness is removed from the discussion. (Heh... as if irrelevance ever stopped a teenager from trying to win an argument.)

[Yair]

(Heh... as if irrelevance ever stopped a teenager from trying to win an argument.)

Or most adults.