How valuable am I in the LabVIEW realm?

[Bryan]

Okay... I don't know if I'm having somewhat of a depressing day or what, but I was thinking of my experience, background and knowledge and was wondering what I'm "worth" to an employer as far as a test engineer/labview programmer.

I've worked for 3 different companies and have done LabVIEW in all of them. I've only ever had LabVIEW Basics I, but have been using learning and developing in LabVIEW since 1999. I've used LabVIEW with serial, gpib, vision, pxi, analog/digital I/O, TCP/IP & UDP etc, I've been using TestStand for a year now (no formal training) and have integrated LabVIEW into some pretty custom/complicated applications. I've learned a lot about LabVIEW software architecture and useage and am always eager to learn more. I would typically consider myself to be a "good", advanced LabVIEW programmer (compared to most of you guys, I'm not, but have been relative to the experience at some of my companies). I've designed and built test fixtures and done LOTS of engineering work.

But here's the thing... I have an associates degree in Fiber Optics and Electronics. I've been titled an "Engineer" at this company and my last, and have been told countless times that I perform well within an engineer's level, even moreso than some of our degreed engineers. Only problem is that my tangible "certifications" limit me career-wise and have often prevented me from getting jobs that I really wanted... including but not limited to self employment and NI Alliance partners. I'd LOVE to get a job with an NI Alliance partner because then I would be GUARANTEED to be doing just what I enjoy... LabVIEW and NI stuff. I would love even more to find a place willing to help fund my LabVIEW/TestStand development and even help me gain certification. I'm a quick learner, so this wouldn't require much patience. It's tough with my current job as LabVIEW and NI stuff involves a small portion of my job. I'd love it to BE my job. Hell, to get my current job I just about begged John Howard (former board member before he moved to the mountains... "JRH") to test my LabVIEW knowledge so that I could prove to him that I knew my stuff. (LV2-style functional global knowledge I think got me in )

I guess bottom line is that I feel like I'm worth something as a LabVIEW programmer/Test Engineer... but when I start looking at job postings and comparing myself to other LabVIEW gurus, it diminishes my view of my own competence.

On the plus side however... I can advertise myself like: "Get an Engineer's work without having to pay an Engineer's salary". Only problem is that I want the Engineer's salary, so that would only really get me in the door. I'm sure if a potential employer were to take the time and sit down with me to discuss my experience and relative work-history and set degree aside, I'd be able to prove myself competent. Sadly though, you have to impress them enough on paper to even get to that point (interview). Without the often sought after line items (degree, GPA), it's tough to get.

[Grampa_of_Oliva_n_Eden]

Hi Bryan,

I had also worked my way up from tech to support engineer before getting laid off.

The world wants credentials.

I'll avoid the why and if they are what they appear.

The easiest way to get the credentials is geting the degree. This is the route I took (at the age of 41).

The other alternative it to work on becoming famous for LV without the degree. Much harder than going to school.

Re: LV jobs. Until you get the credentials you are probably best suited for the smaller integrators that do not have an HR department that seprates resumes into degree / no-degree piles.

Trying to be pragmatic (without getting into a discussion of class [NO not LVOOP classes])

Ben

[Dan Bookwalter]

Okay... I don't know if I'm having somewhat of a depressing day or what, but I was thinking of my experience, background and knowledge and was wondering what I'm "worth" to an employer as far as a test engineer/labview programmer.

I've worked for 3 different companies and have done LabVIEW in all of them. I've only ever had LabVIEW Basics I, but have been using learning and developing in LabVIEW since 1999. I've used LabVIEW with serial, gpib, vision, pxi, analog/digital I/O, TCP/IP & UDP etc, I've been using TestStand for a year now (no formal training) and have integrated LabVIEW into some pretty custom/complicated applications. I've learned a lot about LabVIEW software architecture and useage and am always eager to learn more. I would typically consider myself to be a "good", advanced LabVIEW programmer (compared to most of you guys, I'm not, but have been relative to the experience at some of my companies). I've designed and built test fixtures and done LOTS of engineering work.

But here's the thing... I have an associates degree in Fiber Optics and Electronics. I've been titled an "Engineer" at this company and my last, and have been told countless times that I perform well within an engineer's level, even moreso than some of our degreed engineers. Only problem is that my tangible "certifications" limit me career-wise and have often prevented me from getting jobs that I really wanted... including but not limited to self employment and NI Alliance partners. I'd LOVE to get a job with an NI Alliance partner because then I would be GUARANTEED to be doing just what I enjoy... LabVIEW and NI stuff. I would love even more to find a place willing to help fund my LabVIEW/TestStand development and even help me gain certification. I'm a quick learner, so this wouldn't require much patience. It's tough with my current job as LabVIEW and NI stuff involves a small portion of my job. I'd love it to BE my job. Hell, to get my current job I just about begged John Howard (former board member before he moved to the mountains... "JRH") to test my LabVIEW knowledge so that I could prove to him that I knew my stuff. (LV2-style functional global knowledge I think got me in )

I guess bottom line is that I feel like I'm worth something as a LabVIEW programmer/Test Engineer... but when I start looking at job postings and comparing myself to other LabVIEW gurus, it diminishes my view of my own competence.

On the plus side however... I can advertise myself like: "Get an Engineer's work without having to pay an Engineer's salary". Only problem is that I want the Engineer's salary, so that would only really get me in the door. I'm sure if a potential employer were to take the time and sit down with me to discuss my experience and relative work-history and set degree aside, I'd be able to prove myself competent. Sadly though, you have to impress them enough on paper to even get to that point (interview). Without the often sought after line items (degree, GPA), it's tough to get.

Bryan

i would have to agree with what Ben mentioned about looking at the smaller companies who dont have so many "filters" between you and the job you are after...

Dan

p.s. i am in the same boat that you are in , my title is Test Enginner and like you i don't have a degree... i have kicked around looking for a new job , but , as of yet i havent been to serious about it , i may be in the spring though...

Good Luck

[crelf]

I guess bottom line is that I feel like I'm worth something as a LabVIEW programmer/Test Engineer... but when I start looking at job postings and comparing myself to other LabVIEW gurus, it diminishes my view of my own competence.

Whilst when we advertise we ask for engineers with degrees, our interview process includes skills evaluations, so why not give this a go?

[jhoskins]

Bryan

i would have to agree with what Ben mentioned about looking at the smaller companies who dont have so many "filters" between you and the job you are after...

Dan

p.s. i am in the same boat that you are in , my title is Test Enginner and like you i don't have a degree... i have kicked around looking for a new job , but , as of yet i havent been to serious about it , i may be in the spring though...

Good Luck

I am in the pretty much the same boat as the rest of you. Although I have a BAS in EET from ITT. It is where i got my degree from that holds me back from getting the higher paying jobs even though I have the skills and good credentials as soon as they see i did not get my degree from a four year university I'm out without even getting to say a word or put my foot in the door. That is why now I have found a school that will accept most of my credits and will give me a four year college degree.

[Bryan]

Well, it's comforting to see that I'm not the only one. It sucks though that so many companies will pass up enthusiasm and talent for an expensive piece of paper. But, I guess the paper guarantees certain competencies.

Crelf, thanks for the link, but MI is too cold for me.

[crelf]

Crelf, thanks for the link, but MI is too cold for me.

*sigh* that's what everyone says

[i2dx]

*sigh* that's what everyone says

I have no problems with cold weather (I have several pieces from the "The North Face" collection ...) but - as you maybe know - I am from Germany, and I work as a freelancer / contractor. If you need backup soon and badly, maybe you may consider to hire me

Generally I am interested in working in USA for one or two years. In my first approach I would not like to stay longer, because your speed limit really hurts me - or I'd have to take my car along and need a race track near to the place where I would live

[Grampa_of_Oliva_n_Eden]

I have no problems with cold weather (I have several pieces from the "The North Face" collection ...) but - as you maybe know - I am from Germany, and I work as a freelancer / contractor. If you need backup soon and badly, maybe you may consider to hire me

Generally I am interested in working in USA for one or two years. In my first approach I would not like to stay longer, because your speed limit really hurts me - or I'd have to take my car along and need a race track near to the place where I would live

Lake Superior does not frezze over but around the edges its 15 feet (5M) thick.

No speed limits on the lake.

Ben

Previous resident of Duluth

[Dan Bookwalter]

Lake Superior does not frezze over but around the edges its 15 feet (5M) thick.

No speed limits on the lake.

Ben

Previous resident of Duluth

Yes but when you crash do you call the Coast Guard or the Highway Patrol

[Jim Kring]

Well, it's comforting to see that I'm not the only one. It sucks though that so many companies will pass up enthusiasm and talent for an expensive piece of paper. But, I guess the paper guarantees certain competencies.

Crelf, thanks for the link, but MI is too cold for me.

If you're looking for a warm climate and a company that values passion and talent (especially WRT LabVIEW), check out JKI.

Cheers,

[Bryan]

If you're looking for a warm climate and a company that values passion and talent (especially WRT LabVIEW), check out JKI.

Cheers,

Man, when I was living in California (Moved to VA in 9/04), if I would have known JKI would be even REMOTELY interested in hiring me... I would have been there in an instant. Hell, my first and I think only PM correspondence with you through this board was back when I lived in Orange County... just before I moved here.

I'm not so much looking for a job as looking at my possibilities. I have a friend who lives in NC and another one moving there soon and the idea of looking for a job there crossed my mind... so I did a monster search and found a position open with an NI Alliance partner (the position is actually posted on this board too), but when I saw 'bachelor's with 3.0 GPA required', it brought all of this up. Back when I was looking to move back here to the east, I had a problem finding companies interested in me because I didn't have a bachelor's, even though I was CONFIDENT that I would be able to meet their needs for a LabVIEW programmer based on their position descriptions. Sperry was the only one willing to take me and that was through John.

[crelf]

...but when I saw 'bachelor's with 3.0 GPA required'...

These job descriptions are usually written by senior engineers, but are often bastardised as they move toward publishing, so whilst it may say required, I'd still apply. I wouldn't hide the fact that you don't have the degree, but I'd certainly highlight the industry experience. While I'm at it - as an interviewer I like to see past projects that interviewees have worked on, but I also like to see a lot of thought put into the knowledge section of resumes. Case in point: I've recently hired a guy that had extensive FPGA knowledge hilighted in his resume - it wouldn't have mattered if he didn't have a university degree - in the end, I wasn't after someone who has a degree, I was after someone with FPGA experince. As long as you can get your resume past the HR department somehow, you can shine in front of the interviewer (usually a senior engineer at least).

[Mike Ashe]

The key here is to get in front of that senior engineer in the interview. And the key to getting past the HR department when you have any disadvantage, such as lack of some specified credential, is to find and make contact with some person in the company and convince them to interview you *before you submit to HR*. Let your contact know that you do not meet "requirement XYZ" but that you more than make up for it with LMOP, etc, and have that person inform their HR dept ahead of time that they are expecting your resume and that they want it forwarded to them anyway.

This "pull" from the inside is what it takes. You cannot push a rope, but if you can get someone inside (with pull) to "pull" then you can stand or fall on your interview skills and experience.

How do you do that? Well, it looks like you've already found one way (see post #4 above) in making contacts on forums like this. Or another good way can be meetings at trade shows or conferences. The best meetings at those are usually the meetings outside the meetings.

Good luck!

[crelf]

...the key to getting past the HR department ... is to find and make contact with some person in the company and convince them to interview you *before you submit to HR*. Let your contact know that you do not meet "requirement XYZ" but that you more than make up for it with LMOP, etc, and have that person inform their HR dept ahead of time that they are expecting your resume and that they want it forwarded to them anyway.

:thumbup: Abso-frakin-lutely! Although most medium/large companies have strict HR departments in the way (and they're there for a reason - mine filters out an amazing number of extremely underqualified applicants so I don't have to waste my time with them), and as long as you know your stuff, attempting the direct contact method is a definate positive!

[Michael Aivaliotis]

In my experience, there are three things that will get you into a company for an interview: Networking, Networking and Networking. The only LabVIEW job I had to send in a resume cold, was my first one. That's because I didn't have much LabVIEW experience. Since then, I only speak directly to upper management. It took a lot of blood, sweat and tears (how to be an expert) to get to the level I am today, but it's paying off in that I can "pick and choose" my employers. The older, and more experienced you are, the less important your education credentials. Of course, there's always the chance to be over-qualified. For some reason, the only way to get paid lot's of money is to become a manager (and abandon programming ). The only problem is I love LabVIEW too much to give it up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm subjected to interviews and tests like anyone else. I just don't get subjected to HR filtering. Wouldn't you feel like crap knowing I applied for a job at your company and you never knew about it because HR thought I wasn't qualified?

[Chris Davis]

I've also found that a willingness to move is a big plus to finding a new job. Unfortunantly having small children can, sometimes, prohibit this process. Still it is a good idea to look at the job market every once in a while to see where you stand, and if it would be worth it to make a big change.

BTW, my current employer also values the degree more than the experience on new employees. I am part of our college recruiting team, and I always look for the "diamond in the rough" when I'm out recruiting. Sometimes you see one, sometimes you don't, but it is worth the time it takes to talk to people who want to work at your company.

[Aristos Queue]

Generally I am interested in working in USA for one or two years. In my first approach I would not like to stay longer, because your speed limit really hurts me - or I'd have to take my car along and need a race track near to the place where I would live

The Texas Motor Speedway (between Austin and Dallas on I-35) is open to amatures who want to race their own cars in the off-season.

I'm sure if a potential employer were to take the time and sit down with me to discuss my experience and relative work-history and set degree aside, I'd be able to prove myself competent. Sadly though, you have to impress them enough on paper to even get to that point (interview). Without the often sought after line items (degree, GPA), it's tough to get.

I'm going to offer a bit of an opposite take from a lot of the posts here.

Several posts have suggested that self-taught, on-the-job training is as good as having the degree, given enough time. I'm not so sure that's true. I was a pretty good programmer before college, but the styles I had "worked out" on my own, although good enough for the personal projects I worked on, were pretty bad for working in any sort of professional environment. I know that my programming methods became much more rigorous over the course of college. How much of that would I have gotten from on-the-job training? I don't really know. But I do know that an employer would've had to put up with me for several years before I had enough exposure to be equivalent to the degree.

Most LV users are not programmers by education, and, honestly, the VIs that I see reflect that. I'll grant that most of the user VIs that I see are in bug reports, and I rarely see entire systems, so I may not have a good view, but some of the programming choices that I see are clearly "something that works" and not "the right way to do it." I can see this being true of many fields -- the self-taught person is sharp, clearly able to produce, but perhaps has never seen some of the standard ways of doing things, and thus ends up producing systems that are hard for others to use/modify.

In this respect, I don't think it is merely a convenient way of filtering a large stack of resumes. A degree proves that at some point, for at least one semester, you were exposed to a particular idea and that you've been properly biased toward a central model of doing some job. If you're hiring an artist, maybe you do want to go for avant garde. But if you're hiring an engineer, especially an engineer who is going to be part of a larger team, you want that standardization. You might be able to prove the same standardization exposure with certification exams. But you've got to have something like it because otherwise no matter how impressive the previous work history, there's little on a resume that will show that the work done at those previous jobs will be useful at the new location.

[i2dx]

The Texas Motor Speedway (between Austin and Dallas on I-35) is open to amatures who want to race their own cars in the off-season.

hmm ... that could be a way. want me "back home" ?

BTW: do you know Matt Duff? He worked for R&D before he came to NI Services in Germany ...

[Michael Aivaliotis]

I've also found that a willingness to move is a big plus to finding a new job. Unfortunately having small children can, sometimes, prohibit this process.

From personal experience, the smaller the children the easier it is. As they get older, they start to have (god forbid) friends and (even worse) boyfriends. Then it gets emotional.

[Bryan]

Willingness to move has never been a problem for me since my wife and I embrace opportunity for something new... however, I now have a 1 yr old and can definitely understand how it gets more complicated and even more when they get older.

Also, the point on having someone on the inside... it makes complete sense, and that's how I got my current job. I never would have if it handn't been for JRH.

My last job I got becuase I was one of very few applicants... I desperately needed a job (Corning had just downsized their photonics division and I was one of many victims) and they desperately needed a LabVIEW programmer.

I've never hidden the fact that I didn't have a Bachelor's Degree. I've actually put it out there... probably more than I should to show that I'm being honest and straightforward. I also agree that not having a degree leaves me with a lot of holes in my knowledge as far as being an engineer is concerned. I desperately want to go to school, but with a kid and house that needs constant attention, it feels impossible to devote any time to anything other than my source of well-being (work) and my family/home.

I'm glad to see so much understanding and advice for my point of view. I also think that I'm probably somewhat over-ambitious and set myself up for disappointment at times. A man feels whole when he feels that there's something about him that gives him that extra edge. I've been complimented... sometimes daily on my ability and knowledge and willingess and quickness to learn despite my educational background. Even being told that if I had a 4-yr, I'd be dangerous (in a good way). It's a good feeling and keeps my ethic and enthusiasm alive... but then there are times when reality hits and pulls me down, drowning the motivation and enthusiasm.

Maybe I just need a :beer:

[crelf]

Maybe I just need a :beer:

Don't stop at one - have a couple

[pallen]

Okay... I don't know if I'm having somewhat of a depressing day or what, but I was thinking of my experience, background and knowledge and was wondering what I'm "worth" to an employer as far as a test engineer/labview programmer.

I guess I'll add my "me too" reply as well.

My own situation is similar. But I'm probably a little "greener" with LV code.

My own "degree" wasn't even a proper technologist college course. It was focused more around consumer electronics. But since I'd already been fixing televisions and various other things for a few years before I took the course, I aced it. That got my foot in the door as a "helper" in an R&D lab for auto parts maker.

When that company decided to start building it's own test fixtures, I was put into the new department. I started an industrial electrician apprenticeship and got my feet wet in the programing world with PLCs. I was always jealous of the LabVIEW programmers though. It looked so much more interesting.

When that company went through reorganizing, I got cut. But I landed another job doing pretty much the same thing. Now I'm programing in LabView all the time. (even in my sleep sometimes!)

Even without a degree, I think skills with controls, technical writing and even seeming unrelated things like preparing SR&ED submissions (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/taxcredit/sred/aboutus-e.html) can go a long way for the right employer.

Although I have to admit, I've been looking for way to fast-track one of my own.

Are there any of those Cayman Island Universities around anymore?

--

Patrick Allen

[Michael Aivaliotis]

Another option is to put yourself out there into the community. Some of us around here have done that and are still doing it. Put together some code and submit it to the CR. It will make you feel better. Nothing beats the warmth of the LAVA flow...

[Michael Aivaliotis]

Most LV users are not programmers by education, and, honestly, the VIs that I see reflect that. I'll grant that most of the user VIs that I see are in bug reports, and I rarely see entire systems, so I may not have a good view, but some of the progrsamming choices that I see are clearly "something that works" and not "the right way to do it." I can see this being true of many fields -- the self-taught person is sharp, clearly able to produce, but perhaps has never seen some of the standard ways of doing things, and thus ends up producing systems that are hard for others to use/modify.

No offense but in the world of LabVIEW applications/systems, my opinion is that NI has a limited view of what real LabVIEW applications look like. I realize that you qualified your statement but I was also offended. There are many reason why you or other NI staff will never see good code. One of them is that a lot of developers including myself simply don't trust NI. You only see what we let you see. :ninja: .