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dannyt

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View from a newbi

QUOTE(mballa @ Mar 17 2006, 05:28 AM)

I find many times while browsing through the site that someone writes or post code that I find useful. For various reason I don't feel it necessary to generate a post just to say thank you but I would like to encourage the member and to aleart others in some way. On the flip side I too would like to know if what I posted is found to be useful.

I very much like the two comments above, as a newbie it would give a realistic guide to me if I am to find the right type of level for the LAVA forums.

I am however finding this whole issue very unnerving as a newbie, when I can across LAVA at first I was very keen and interested, it felt an open and friendly site, I WANTED TO be involved.

However over the last week, with all that has been going on, I have been looking at the post (not many) I have made, thinking were they suitable and valid; should I really be on LAVA at all.

There is a risk that a lot of newbies will be put of posting and getting involved, the site will end up with a large number of members most of whom only ever look and do not take part, I think in the long run that will make it a less interesting place both both the newbies and the long term members. In my experience it can sometimes be the most seemingly stupid of question, that generates some of the deepest and interesting of discussions.

I would like to say to Michael many thanks for providing this great site. I would also like to thank all the regular expert contributors who make it so great.

cheers

Danny

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CITATION(Ben @ Feb 28 2006, 05:12 PM)

The lack of positive is bad enough all by itself.

I totally agree with Ben. If for 100 posts a member get only 1 or 2 good rating then it mean he is not really bringing usefull knowledge with his posts.

The lack of positive is, IMO, worse than a negative rating.

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QUOTE(dannyt @ May 2 2007, 09:56 PM)

View from a newbi...

However over the last week, with all that has been going on, I have been looking at the post (not many) I have made, thinking were they suitable and valid; should I really be on LAVA at all.

I'm not sure that hits the point - it's not specifically newbies that are being targeted, it's people asking HH questions - that they are mostly newbies is mostly irrelevant. We all started as newbies, but as long as you're not trying to hustle other members into doing your homework for you, then you'll have an infintely better chance of avoiding ire. For example, here's a post that I would consider homework hustling:

QUOTE

Dear all,

I want to do sun follower project with LABVIEW with spesific type of sensor but till now I dont know how can I construct the circiuit?? what shall I use??

how can I use Labview in this case??please need ur help...

It's not because the member's a newbie, it's because the question is vague, it's obviously someone looking someone to do their homework for them, and after other members suggested that he/she should research it a little more themselves and then ask a more appropriate question, the original poster became belligerent.

In summary: HH are becomming less and less welcome at LAVA, and that's a real shame - a handful of lazy students are giving the ones who really want to learn a bad reputation.

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QUOTE(dannyt @ May 2 2007, 01:56 PM)

However over the last week, with all that has been going on, I have been looking at the post (not many) I have made, thinking were they suitable and valid; should I really be on LAVA at all.

hmm ... that's a stupid question in my eyes:

if you are interested in learning and serious with labview you and your questions are generally* welcome.

generally* because, maybe the long term users do not want to answer a question, which has been answered several times before. The reason is simple: that's boring, and e.g. I am not here to waste time, but to read about topics, which are interesting and contain new aspects. So the worst, that could happen to your question is, that maybe you'll get no answer.

But if your questions are specific and you point out the issue as exactly as possible, I can not find any reason, why you should feel misplaced or even worse "not worth to write here" - that's bullsh*t.

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QUOTE(dannyt @ May 2 2007, 07:56 AM)

...

However over the last week, with all that has been going on, I have been looking at the post (not many) I have made, thinking were they suitable and valid; should I really be on LAVA at all.

There is a risk that a lot of newbies will be put of posting and getting involved, the site will end up with a large number of members most of whom only ever look and do not take part, I think in the long run that will make it a less interesting place both both the newbies and the long term members. In my experience it can sometimes be the most seemingly stupid of question, that generates some of the deepest and interesting of discussions.

...

Bravo!

I felt the same way.

Although I signed up early for LAVA (member #29 6-Dec-2002) I only prowled in the shadows until last year because I did not feel I was up to the LAVA standards. The recent comments about "go to the NI Forum" has had me thinking twice if I was ready to join this forum.

Lets return to the idea that LAVA is a team of diverse contributors contributors with our own parts to play.

If we we all "perfect goalies" we would only be able to play a very boring game of soccer (football).

We need people who do NOT know everything already who are willing to ask the "dumb questions" or voice thought that are outside the adopted norm.

Doing my best to "play the fool",

Ben

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QUOTE(Ben @ May 2 2007, 08:46 AM)

We need people who do NOT know everything already who are willing to ask the "dumb questions" or voice thought that are outside the adopted norm.

This makes me think of the cliche that explaining/teaching something is the best way to really understand it yourself.

I think Ben really has a good point, especially when I think back to the many posts in which a veteran has remarked "I didn't know you could do that!" when someone has explained to a newbie one of LabVIEW's many little tricks and features.

I think we're starting to see a pattern here. In the last week, I've counted 4 people with 23 years combined LabVIEW experience expressing doubts about whether they were advanced enough to be posting here at LAVA.

I understand the desire to run off the homework hustlers, but if it is done in a way which makes others feel unwelcome or intimidated, then LAVA will eventually become a forum that is, in essence, dedicated to a handful of people who are primarily interested in discussing GOOP and X-controls.

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People - this discussion has gone off an a tangent that I think has little to do with the original thread: IMO this has nothing to do with whether you're "good enough".

In summary:

  • It's about HOW you ask the question.
  • It's about weeding out HHs misrepresenting themselves.
  • It's about RingTFM before you post.
  • It's about posters trying something out before they expect others to do the work for them.
  • It's about learning, not regurgitating or plagiarising.

If you follow the guidelines then you'll be welcomed with open arms, irrespective of whether you think your question is a stupid one or not. If we dissed all those members that have asked what we think is a stupid question, then none of us would be here.

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It's also about how we phrase responses to those who don't follow your guidelines. If we are too harsh, then we intimidate or scare off the the non-HH newbies along with the HH culprits.

QUOTE

If you follow the guidelines then you'll be welcomed with open arms, irrespective of whether you think your question is a stupid one or not. If we dissed all those members that have asked what we think is a stupid question, then none of us would be here.

I understand that this is how everybody feels about basic questions, but Ben, dannyt, dsaunders, and I have all remarked recently that we have doubted whether our questions are worthy of LAVA. Despite the remarks from you, id2x, and others that we shouldn't feel this way, the fact is that something is giving us that impression. Do we just happen to be meek people, or are we getting (inaccurate) vibes about whether LAVA is too exclusive for us? Who knows?

Yes, we want people to think before posting, but we also don't want them to be afraid to post.

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QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ Feb 28 2006, 01:14 AM)

I've been considering the idea of having a Member reputation system implemented. This would allow you to rate others and in turn be rated.

I just don't think it's necessary here. On a site like Slashdot, where there are hundreds of thousands of users, it's necessary to winnow out the chaff. But here at LAVA, the signal to noise ratio is quite high. I don't think I've ever even seen an honest-to-god troll here. I think the "Activity level" ratings for each user are as much information as is really needed. I'm not sure how big the community actually is, but it seems like the number of regular posters could be measured in the few dozen.

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QUOTE(Gary Rubin @ May 3 2007, 12:35 AM)

I agree, and that's what a lot of this arguement is about: people get emotive and agressive, not necessarily to send a message to the thread poster, but often to increase their alpha male status in the community. This practise (one that I've been guilty of in the past) has no place at LAVA, and I beleive is was the motivation behind the "some posts have been downright mean" post that Mike wrote.

QUOTE(Gary Rubin @ May 3 2007, 12:35 AM)

I understand that this is how everybody feels about basic questions, but Ben, dannyt, dsaunders, and I have all remarked recently that we have doubted whether our questions are worthy of LAVA... Yes, we want people to think before posting, but we also don't want them to be afraid to post.

I agree - if you've followed the guidelines, no one should ever be afraid to post. Even an odd guideline broken here or there is usually over looked. But continuosly breaking them will draw negative attention - if you look at the threads we're talking about, that's what's happened: the original poster has reapeatedly and continuously flouted the guidelines and more experienced LAVA memebers have started but curteously asking them to refer to the guidelines and try to guide them in the right direction, to no avail. I understand that you and the other posters you listed have been concerned about whether you're worthy to post on LAVA, and I can most strongly assure that, as long as you follow the guidelines, you ceratinly are.

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QUOTE(Gary Rubin @ May 2 2007, 08:31 AM)

Very true, and patience when seeing someone explain something that has been explained before is a virtue.

QUOTE

Since I have bagged my limit of HH's here on several occasions I thought I'd chime in. Although I have been "short" with several HH's over time, I (and I think others) think the practice has usually been to try to convert them into someone who uses the forum the right way, to ask a question the right way, rather than just to hustle them off to NI's forums. I have been pretty busy of late, and have not posted or even been reading much, so I missed "The recent comments about 'go to the NI Forum' ".

While we don't need unrepentent HH's here, we do need newbies, and we need an atmosphere that incourages them to ask questions (the right way) and that includes "dumb" questions.

Along those lines, of encouragement, in a proactive way, perhaps there is some way that registration of a new user could include mandatory reading of the two articles many of us repeatedly point out. "How to use the LAVA Website" and "How to ask questions the smart way." These get quoted to newbies, HH's, etc over and over. Perhaps Michael could make a link to reading those a mandatory page(s) during new registration.

If there were only one change, how about a quick bulleted summary of how to ask questions, post your code first, show what you've tried, and maybe a polite request to at least attempt to use English rather than "chatspeak texting", since we all have real keyboards. I agree totally that we should be very accomodating to those for whom English is a second language (don't say it crelf, I know what you're thinking ...), but if someone does not have the time to post in anything but chatspeak they probably should not complain if we reply in cryptic compressed engineering talk.

Gotta go, the Kona is calling ...

post-932-1159825841.gif

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QUOTE(Mike Ashe @ May 3 2007, 01:57 AM)

While we don't need unrepentent HH's here, we do need newbies, and we need an atmosphere that incourages them to ask questions (the right way) and that includes "dumb" questions.

Very well put :thumbup:

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Danny, you should note that the problem users here had was not with "stupid questions", but with the attitude of the users asking them. The people here usually have no problem with simple questions (hell, even the advanced regulars can get stuck sometimes on simple stuff because of a temporary blind spot) as long as the person asking the question shows that he or she are willing to do their part.

You're perfectly fine. You can ask anything you like. Personally, I usually find that even if get stuck on something, I will get an answer much quickly if I search first, because people usually take time to answer.

Addition - I seem to have missed the second page of posts.

Basically, Chris put it best, so just read what he had to say.

Ben, regarding the "go to the NI forums" - I don't think that LAVA should outgrow itself. The NI forums are much more appropriate for the simpler question because they have dedicated admins, a much larger user base and a more convenient UI for those volumes.

If LAVA grew too much, it would be hard to find the good stuff, in the same way that most LAVA members probably don't frequent the NI LabVIEW board because it's impossible to find the interesting stuff.

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We are NOT going to implement a reputation system. This was an old thread that was dead and now resurected. We will not implement any type of voting system either. Please see here for my response on other issues raised in this thread.

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