Appropriate alignment grid for FP

[Eugen Graf]

Hello, what is the most appropriate alignment grid for Front Panel? I don't more know my default value. I think e.g. on default sizes of controls.

If I place a LV control (e.g. 39X20 = default size of a boolean button) to my FP and move them, but my alignment grid is 8X8, then I get some little problems (see attachment).

Eugen

P.S. I know I can group/ungroup or resize buttons, but I want only to know what is the default grid size after LV installation.

[PaulG.]

Tools>Options>Alignment Grid = 12 pixels.

[Eugen Graf]

QUOTE(PaulG. @ Aug 29 2007, 03:27 PM)

Tools>Options>Alignment Grid = 12 pixels.

Thank you. I found it in one of LV VIs.

Shit, 12 is a bad choise. I will stay on 8.

Thanks

[Yair]

I personally can't stand the default snap to grid option. I much prefer using the align and distribute menus after I placed my control on the FP.

[Aristos Queue]

QUOTE(Eugen Graf @ Aug 29 2007, 08:35 AM)

Shit, 12 is a bad choise. I will stay on 8.

Curious... what makes 12 so bad? All the controls/indicators in the palettes are sized to 12 pixel increments.

[PJM_labview]

QUOTE(Aristos Queue @ Aug 29 2007, 03:24 PM)

Curious... what makes 12 so bad? All the controls/indicators in the palettes are sized to 12 pixel increments.

This might be true on the Mac, but this does not seem to be the case on PC. I just tried a few controls; and not even one is a multiple of 12 when created.

See screenshot below with dimension (width x height)

http://forums.lavag.org/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=6807''>http://forums.lavag.org/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=6807'>http://forums.lavag.org/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=6807

PJM

[Val Brown]

QUOTE(PJM_labview @ Aug 29 2007, 04:32 PM)

This might be true on the Mac, but this does not seem to be the case on PC. I just tried a few controls; and not even one is a multiple of 12 when created.

...PJM

I agree with this and with Ben's point -- so I always disable the alignment grid and use, instead, the alignment tools in a more ad hoc fashion after the fact.

[Aristos Queue]

QUOTE(PJM_labview @ Aug 29 2007, 06:32 PM)

This might be true on the Mac, but this does not seem to be the case on PC. I just tried a few controls; and not even one is a multiple of 12 when created.

Oh, duh. I always turn on the "resize new items to grid".

[crelf]

QUOTE(Aristos Queue @ Aug 30 2007, 12:04 PM)

I always turn on the "resize new items to grid".

[Val Brown]

QUOTE(crelf @ Aug 29 2007, 08:56 PM)

Which brings us back to the starting point of -- do you use the alignment grid? I don't and prefer to do (precise) alignment of FP items later on but, then again, I also like to use a look of custom "look and feel" in the interface. The more STANDARD you want an interface, the more appealing the alignment grid will be, esp with "resize new items to grid" selected.

[crelf]

QUOTE(Val Brown @ Aug 30 2007, 02:55 PM)

Which brings us back to the starting point of -- do you use the alignment grid?

I have it on, but I don't snap to it. I do use the alignment tools, but I'm old fashioned, and can move a FP node around with the arrow keys pretty damn quickly.

[Justin Goeres]

QUOTE(crelf @ Aug 29 2007, 10:49 PM)

I have it on, but I don't snap to it. I do use the alignment tools, but I'm old fashioned, and can move a FP node around with the arrow keys pretty damn quickly.

Seconded. I also mouse left-handed, so the drag-it-then-use-the-arrows method is two-handed for me.

[Val Brown]

QUOTE(Justin Goeres @ Aug 30 2007, 09:14 AM)

Seconded. I also mouse left-handed, so the drag-it-then-use-the-arrows method is two-handed for me.

I work on laptops only so have a trackpad and do this two handed as well -- and don't even have to leave the keyboard!

Makes it very easy, at least for me.

[MikaelH]

The front panel grid works fine but I would like to see the Microsofts Visual Studio approach some day.

It shows you help lines when you reached edges of other objects like this picture.

http://forums.lavag.org/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=6808

--Mikael--

[LAVA 1.0 Content]

QUOTE(Val Brown @ Aug 30 2007, 03:04 PM)

I work on laptops only so have a trackpad and do this two handed as well -- and don't even have to leave the keyboard!

As a lefty, I do this two handed also, I also use Shift+arrow keys to move in large increments, then release the shift for the final 'nudging'.

QUOTE(MikaelH @ Aug 30 2007, 09:06 PM)

It shows you help lines when you reached edges of other objects like this picture.

I like this idea. It reminds of of witness lines (I'm an old time CAD guy). It would be nice if we could turn something like this on and off; sort of like "show coersion dots" :thumbup:

I wonder if anyone at NI has looked at reusing UI functionality between the Multisim/Ultiboard products and LabVIEW. I'm not familiar with Multisim/Ultiboard; but features like radial grids and auto-alignment and spreadsheet view make me wonder and even drool. Imagine being able to see all of your controls in a spreadsheet, sorting/filtering them by type, then changing properties en masse, then applying the changes to the FP.

I've got to get into marketing...

[Yair]

Just to make it clear - I also have it on, but I just don't snap to it.

I think it's much better to have it on then off because it also allows you to distinguish between locked\running VIs and idle VIs and because it shows you the 0 lines.

By the way, for those who don't know it, holding shift down while dragging with the mouse moves the object in a straight line. Holding shift down while using the arrow keys moves the objects in larger increments.

[Graeme]

For what it's worth, a front panel grid size of 4 gives me the results I like best. Tried a few but this came tops. Dunno why, but it works for me. Surely, the larger the grid size, and with snap to grid, the less control you're going to have over you GUI. Not snapping to any grid leaves everything too fluid, in my opinion, at least for a quick development

Graeme.

BTW, this is the sort of thing that really narks me about LV. I can do some really neat, complex BD stuff in LV so easily and tidily, but then I'll spend ages just aligning/sizing FP objects to make the GUI look good. Not a moan, just an observation, but I do spend a lot of time on neatening my FPs. The fact that this question had to be asked in the first palce demonstrates the point adequately (in my opinion).

[Michael Aivaliotis]

QUOTE(Eugen Graf @ Aug 29 2007, 06:16 AM)

Hello, what is the most appropriate alignment grid for Front Panel?

You use the alignment grid?

I never use it so I can't tell ya.

I don't even show the lines.

[Aristos Queue]

QUOTE(Michael_Aivaliotis @ Sep 1 2007, 01:31 AM)

You use the alignment grid?

I never use it so I can't tell ya.

I don't even show the lines.

Grid alignment, autowiring, autorouting, autotool, Express VI configuration... never let the environment do for you what you can spend hours doing yourself, right, Michael?

Seriously, though... it never ceases to amaze me the massive difference of opinion about these sorts of features between long-time users and new users of LabVIEW. To relatively new users, these are Heaven-sent productivity improvements, and they find going back to older versions without these to be cumbersome. Older users tend to view these with deep suspicion, even disgust that R&D spent time working on them, and generally see them as getting in the way of getting work done.

I wonder if it is true of other programs to this extent? Certainly I know that autocorrection in MSWord -- which works fabulously well -- gets similar reception, old vs new.

[Eugen Graf]

I am a new LV user and I take it so, how NI engineers have developed it.

I don't use express VIs, but I use autowiing, autotool selection and alignment. E.g. it is not possible to see every pixel on your FP, so you will take more time to align elements without autogrid. IMHO.

Eugen

[Yair]

Stephen, I personally think most of those features are great, except for the snapping to the grid, which I don't like. Maybe I should try using it for a while and see how it works.

[Val Brown]

QUOTE(yen @ Sep 2 2007, 12:14 PM)

Stephen, I personally think most of those features are great, except for the snapping to the grid, which I don't like. Maybe I should try using it for a while and see how it works.

I think that frequently it's a matter of what you're used to using.

I really LIKE having the dots where a wire branches -- others hate it. But having that draws my attention to it as something I might want to look at and refactor.

I like AutoTool and AutoWiring. I use a laptop with a trackpad and having those on means I don't have to move my hands very much at all -- even Tab is available to easily shift the Tool.

I strongly displike Express VIs -- probably 'nuff said about that!

I also strongly dislike "View as Icon" for BD items. I prefer to really see -- at a glance -- that something there is NOT a VI.

And I'm sure I'm not completely alone on this (SOMEONE else must have the same experience) but I still find myself asking why I'm using "VI" since:

1.

QUOTE(yen @ Sep 2 2007, 12:14 PM)

Stephen, I personally think most of those features are great, except for the snapping to the grid, which I don't like. Maybe I should try using it for a while and see how it works.

I think that frequently it's a matter of what you're used to using.

I really LIKE having the dots where a wire branches -- others hate it. But having that draws my attention to it as something I might want to look at and refactor.

I like AutoTool and AutoWiring. I use a laptop with a trackpad and having those on means I don't have to move my hands very much at all -- even Tab is available to easily shift the Tool.

I strongly displike Express VIs -- probably 'nuff said about that!

I also strongly dislike "View as Icon" for BD items. I prefer to really see -- at a glance -- that something there is NOT a VI.

And I'm sure I'm not completely alone on this (SOMEONE else must have the same experience) but I still find myself asking why I'm using "VI" since:

1. I'm NOT word processing

2. I'm not doing text-based programming

3. and,most importantly, I'm not using Unix or any of its "look alikes"

OK so maybe a bunch of you don't know THAT particular reference but, having done my dissertation in ED and THEN become able to "move up" to VI, it still holds a wrong place in my heart.

[Michael Aivaliotis]

QUOTE(Aristos Queue @ Sep 2 2007, 08:16 AM)

Grid alignment, autowiring, autorouting, autotool, Express VI configuration... never let the environment do for you what you can spend hours doing yourself, right, Michael?

The problem is that the environment doesn't do it how I like it. It's just not "smart" enough. You guys need to work on it some more.

Don't get me wrong, I do use some of the new productivity enhancements: autowiring and (i love) autotool and Express VI configuration on drop (but i don't use Express VI's). Any others you want to query me on?

[orko]

QUOTE(Val Brown @ Sep 2 2007, 01:48 PM)

OK so maybe a bunch of you don't know THAT particular reference but, having done my dissertation in ED and THEN become able to "move up" to VI, it still holds a "warm" place in my heart.

Oh I still use VI (in it's Gvim version) to this day... nothing beats the power of the ":" :worship:

[crelf]

* Grid alignment - I have the grid on, but don't align automatically

* Autowiring - Don't use it, it doesn't often wire up what I want

* Autorouting - Don't use it, it doesn't often go the way I consider good style (but that's partly personal)

* Autotool - couldn't live without it, hated it when it first came out, forced myself to use it for two weeks, first week was painful, got easier, now love it love it love it - and it's saved my TAB key from wearing out

* Express VI configuration - Like the idea, don't like the implimentation. Well, not the implimentation per se, but I got burned by a handful of Express VIs that had absolutely horrendous code behind it. I had one that didn't *quite* do what I wanted so I opened it up, poked around for 5 minutes, closed it and quietly went about coding it myself. It's been a while, so perhaps it's time I went back and checked them out again...